338 Edge bullet for elk

[Long Time Long Ranger]

Thanks, is that out of a 300 RUM. About 3450 is about it for me with a 180 grain bullet. A guy let me use a few 177's and I had them at 3500 fps. Didn't have enough of them to do much other than one load and try it. They shot well but didn't seem to open up very well in the dirt behind the target.

Again, short answer to your question about the 338-300 RUM. If you plan on shooting beyond 1000 yards use the 300 grainers or similar high BC bullet. I was just ad-libbing that if you want to do that more horsepower than the RUM case is nice. I shoot the 300 grainers at 3065 fps and the 225's at 3440 fps out of my 28" barrel 338-378 wby. The last big bull elk (356) I shot with it a couple years ago was 908 yards with the 225 AB. Trivial shot, three shots all right through the chest. He traveled less than 50 yards total after jumping and staggering with each hit. First shot would have done it but I didn't know that and it was a half day trip and several miles to get to him.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Glad you joined in Spanker. It's good to hear from others who are shooting the 177's. I only loaded up to 100 gr of H1000 and thought I saw initial signs of pressure with a little over 3400 fps, but I might have been wrong. I might try more. I was getting 3500 plus with RL17 so I went with that. The max load seems to be about 90.2 with 90.5 showing some excessive pressure.

As far as LR performance on game with the 177's, I feel confident they will work as well as any bullet and probably better. Terminal performance is Gerard Schultz's most important concern in producing hunting bullets. The meplat is larger (about.069 by my measurement) than the CE's (.050) and the Bergers (.046) This is to the detriment of BC, but good for reliable expansion. The CE's seem to perform very (according to Cutting Edge) well with .050 meplat, so I'm not too concerned about the 177's on that score.

It's interesting you say they should be seated to the lands because I was thinking the same thing but was told they were not picky about jump to the lands. To load these as a repeater in the 300 RUM, 700 action, I'll have to seat them with the forward driving band right down to the neck and trim the case to about 2.830. (BTW, you do know you cant seat the forward driving band into the neck.) This means with a min throat of about .110 they would be jumping maybe .090 to the lands. So I guess the 177's will have to shoot where they are seated with whatever the jump is if i want to fit them in the mag box. Their BC friendly form factor makes them somewhat inflexible and difficult to load with.

On the GS .338, I was told it was going to be 270 or 275 gr... we might be talking about different bullets.

LTLR, you might take a look at the CE 275's. They are advertised with a .76 BC @ 3000 fps, which is the same as the 300 SMK, which means they can be shot at higher velocity with the same BC, which means they'll reach farther with the same effectiveness. They do need a 9 twist. You could probably get them going real good out of a 338-378.

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

Thanks again, I could get the 275 out the barrel at 3150 fps pretty easy I think but all my barrels are 1-10. I would try some in it though just to see. I want to get some 177's for my 300 RUM. I only had a few given to me and sure looked promising. I made some long kills with it this year with the 208 amax but I keep those to deer and antelope. The 177 would be the long range elk bullet. I agree with you it would outperform the 338-300 RUM with a 300 grainer on long range elk. 3500's with .6's is hard to beat by about anything.

Certain calibers can give you a distict advantage in long range hunting. With current available bullets 264, 30 and 338 calibers can give a guy that advantage. These three calibers have cartridges that can drive high BC hunting bullets extremely fast before you get into severe barrel burners. For instance in 7mm when you get a cartridge fast enough with a hunting bullet that competes with the best 264, 30 and 338 it is a super barrel burner. For example, I know of nothing that can drive a 168 berger 3500 fps that wil not destroy a barrel quickly. And then you still have a berger which is not a premium hunting bullet. In 264 I can drive a 130 scirroco near 3600 fps (.571bc) and we just discussed the 300 RUM at 3500 fps and 338-378 wby at 3450 fps with high bc premium hunting bullets. Just nothing in the other calibers that can do this unless you get into a super barrel burner.

The 375 is quickly joining class with the 264, 30 and 338. Top 375 bullets are coming out that make a 378 wby a super long range rifle. I was shooting mine with the 350 SMK and only my top 338's pushing 300's near 3100 fps could hang with it. I was putting kill shots through an elk cut out at 1500 yards with it while retaining incredible energy. I hope to take a cow at a mile with it this winter.

 

[300spanker]

Long time, and Montana,

we have shot the 177's out of two ultra's so far, and definatley on the lands seems to be the ticket, i couldn;t be any closer than 0.080 on one gun so i am having .125 taken off barrel. i also shot 104 grains of retumbo on the 177 and it was to much powder in case. it was compressed to say the least. didn't have much pressure sign.
Changed to the H1000. After talking to Anthony at GS who is Gherards son-inlaw, i called Gherard back in november and requested a long nose HV 338 bullet with a bc around .75-.8, he said they would start working on it. he felt to get that high of BC it will require a 1 in 9 twist, he also thought it would be in the 250-260 grain range. ususally 15-18% less weight than similar bc types. these bullets will be magic if they open and i can get them to shoot .5 moa out of my rifles. off the lands everything was an inch, the other gun is shooting .6 on the lands. last year we shot 6 great bucks in colorado, and on our way home to arizona i decided that the best long range bullet would be a combination of a berger or jlk on the front 60% and then a H bar section like the partion to retain 40% on the rear. Is there a bullet that does this? if not someone should build it, to me it would be the shangra la of long range hunting.
spanker

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Thanks again, I could get the 275 out the barrel at 3150 fps pretty easy I think but all my barrels are 1-10. I would try some in it though just to see. I want to get some 177's for my 300 RUM. I only had a few given to me and sure looked promising. I made some long kills with it this year with the 208 amax but I keep those to deer and antelope. The 177 would be the long range elk bullet. I agree with you it would outperform the 338-300 RUM with a 300 grainer on long range elk. 3500's with .6's is hard to beat by about anything.

Certain calibers can give you a distict advantage in long range hunting. With current available bullets 264, 30 and 338 calibers can give a guy that advantage. These three calibers have cartridges that can drive high BC hunting bullets extremely fast before you get into severe barrel burners. For instance in 7mm when you get a cartridge fast enough with a hunting bullet that competes with the best 264, 30 and 338 it is a super barrel burner. For example, I know of nothing that can drive a 168 berger 3500 fps that wil not destroy a barrel quickly. And then you still have a berger which is not a premium hunting bullet. In 264 I can drive a 130 scirroco near 3600 fps (.571bc) and we just discussed the 300 RUM at 3500 fps and 338-378 wby at 3450 fps with high bc premium hunting bullets. Just nothing in the other calibers that can do this unless you get into a super barrel burner.

The 375 is quickly joining class with the 264, 30 and 338. Top 375 bullets are coming out that make a 378 wby a super long range rifle. I was shooting mine with the 350 SMK and only my top 338's pushing 300's near 3100 fps could hang with it. I was putting kill shots through an elk cut out at 1500 yards with it while retaining incredible energy. I hope to take a cow at a mile with it this winter.

You might get those 275's working in a 10 twist if you got them going fast enough. You might want to check with Dan at CE first. He is extremely helpful.

here's a couple of reads on them...

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/cutting-edge-bullets-terminal-performance-67985/

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f28/cutting-edge-bullets-65234/

Here's a read on the CE 375 cal bullets. They look impressive as well. Right now they only have the 320's advertised but they have have sent out some heavier one for testing that need a very tight twist.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/cutting-edge-375-bullets-69787/index4.html

Cutting Edge Bullets

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Long time, and Montana,

we have shot the 177's out of two ultra's so far, and definatley on the lands seems to be the ticket, i couldn;t be any closer than 0.080 on one gun so i am having .125 taken off barrel. i also shot 104 grains of retumbo on the 177 and it was to much powder in case. it was compressed to say the least. didn't have much pressure sign.
Changed to the H1000. After talking to Anthony at GS who is Gherards son-inlaw, i called Gherard back in november and requested a long nose HV 338 bullet with a bc around .75-.8, he said they would start working on it. he felt to get that high of BC it will require a 1 in 9 twist, he also thought it would be in the 250-260 grain range. ususally 15-18% less weight than similar bc types. these bullets will be magic if they open and i can get them to shoot .5 moa out of my rifles. off the lands everything was an inch, the other gun is shooting .6 on the lands. last year we shot 6 great bucks in colorado, and on our way home to arizona i decided that the best long range bullet would be a combination of a berger or jlk on the front 60% and then a H bar section like the partion to retain 40% on the rear. Is there a bullet that does this? if not someone should build it, to me it would be the shangra la of long range hunting.
spanker

Yup, I also talked to Anthony a few times and he's the one who told me 270-275 on 2 occasions while we were talking about other stuff as well. Off the top of my head, a high BC 275 gr monometal would have to be quite long requiring a very tight twist.

What brand barrels and type of twists are you using in your 300's? I've got a Broughton 5C at the smith waiting for other parts. I'm going to throat it to .120 because that's what I need for the CE bullets.

Your idea of the perfect bullet sounds pretty good. The advantage of the monometals with driving bands (not the Barnes bullets) is that you can get higher velocities with equal BC bullets. e.g. Berger 210, .64, 3150 vs GS 177, .62, 3550. Really no contest if you can get them to shoot.

 

[300spanker]

Shooting 28 inch shilens with 1in9 twists, originally built for 240 matchking, but when i had one not open on a buck at 650 yards without expanding i started looking elsewhere. when i saw the GS posting by LTLR back in nov. i looked into the 177 because i have the right twist. i know i can push the bullet at 3600 with my H1000 load, i just have to be patient until i get my gun back. i am also adding a wyatt extended box, however, i still won't beable to fit in magazine box. my calculations show my OAL will be 3.93 which will have two drive bands covered in neck with touching lands. we shot 6 great bucks with the JLK 210 long boattail version in colorado this year BC of .680, this bullet performs great. i will be shooting coyotes and dead cows (cattle) out here on a ranch in may, so i should have some real life performance on game soon. i am also going to test the Henson aluminum tip 210. maybe nosler could combine a ballistic tip, with a partition backend and boattail. you mention 177 has bc of .62, i thought it is .64, should i try 4831SC for the 177, which is a little faster than the H1000???
spanker

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Shooting 28 inch shilens with 1in9 twists, originally built for 240 matchking, but when i had one not open on a buck at 650 yards without expanding i started looking elsewhere. when i saw the GS posting by LTLR back in nov. i looked into the 177 because i have the right twist. i know i can push the bullet at 3600 with my H1000 load, i just have to be patient until i get my gun back. i am also adding a wyatt extended box, however, i still won't beable to fit in magazine box. my calculations show my OAL will be 3.93 which will have two drive bands covered in neck with touching lands. we shot 6 great bucks with the JLK 210 long boattail version in colorado this year BC of .680, this bullet performs great. i will be shooting coyotes and dead cows (cattle) out here on a ranch in may, so i should have some real life performance on game soon. i am also going to test the Henson aluminum tip 210. maybe nosler could combine a ballistic tip, with a partition backend and boattail. you mention 177 has bc of .62, i thought it is .64, should i try 4831SC for the 177, which is a little faster than the H1000???
spanker

H1000 was recommended to me for the 177's by another member who has been shooting them almost 2 years now. He's taken game with them at moderate distances. Retumbo is to slow. I've had very good sucess with RL17 in a couple of other cartridges and though it might be a good candidate for the low pressure bore riding GS 177's. So far it's given me better results than H1000 but I may not have pushed H1000 far enough. If H1000 can give me equal velocities with RL17, then H1000 is the logical choice because it's probably more stable and it fills the case whereas RL17 tops out at less than 90% capacity. That being siad, I'm having my next bore nitirided which should result in even less resistance and pressure which would be better for RL17. There's another member who said he got 200 fps more velocity out of his nitrided 300 RUM bore. You could try H4831sc, but if your getting good results with 104 gr of H1000, I doubt it would be any better. Only way to know for sure is run it up.

The JLK bullets are great bullets, but really no different than the Bergers. Same jacket and same shape, except for the LBT's. the 210 LBT probably has a better BC than the 210 Berger, but probably not as much as advertised. It's probably somewhere in the middle. The GS 177 has a BC of .638 @ 3300 fps and the overall average G1 BC from is probably about .610 This is calculated and not fire tested. I will be sending Bryan Litz some of mine in the near future for him to test and then we should have and actual BC. I'm guessing probably in the .6 range and maybe a little higher with MV's in excess of 3500.

GS CUSTOM BULLETS - Specifications for use

My COAL with 3 bands in the neck is 3.955 which is .115 too long for my 3.840 Wyatts.

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

I looked at the cutting edge 338 bullets. Best bullet for the 338-300 RUM is the 225 grain at .640 BC or 252 at .720 BC in my opinion.

I ran the numbers for my 338-378 wby and they are amazing assuming I can shoot the .640 bc 225 grain bullet as fast as I can the 225 AB which I am running at 3440 fps. The .720 bc 252 grain bullet is also amazing if I can run it where I run the 250 SGK at 3300 fps. Rocky Mountain bullets show a .849 for their 250 grain 338 bullet but I don't know anyone who has tested it at that.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I looked at the cutting edge 338 bullets. Best bullet for the 338-300 RUM is the 225 grain at .640 BC or 252 at .720 BC in my opinion.

I ran the numbers for my 338-378 wby and they are amazing assuming I can shoot the .640 bc 225 grain bullet as fast as I can the 225 AB which I am running at 3440 fps. The .720 bc 252 grain bullet is also amazing if I can run it where I run the 250 SGK at 3300 fps. Rocky Mountain bullets show a .849 for their 250 grain 338 bullet but I don't know anyone who has tested it at that.

LTLR, I think your right on that. So far my experience is showing I can push the CE's about 50 fps faster than the E-Tips in my 300 RUM and i am getting good velocity with the E-Tips. So I think you should easily match and maybe exceed the velociteis of the AB's and SMK. One thing to note is, these bullets are very sensitive to tight bores according to the CE folks. But, if you can run an E-Tip through your bore, you should be able to do the same with these because according to my calipers their driving band surface is the same diameter as the E-Tip bearing surface. Just watch for pressure spikes with tight bores.

I just got some of their 25 cal 100 grainers in yesterday. I'm thinking I can get about 3700 fps out of them with RL17 in my 25-06 scince I'm getting 3400 fps with 115 BST's (verified again last week) and 3500 fps with 110 AB's. I'm anxious to see what velocity and accuracy they will give me.

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

I could never get the etips to group like I wanted so I quit using them. The Barnes never grouped for me until they started cutting the bands in them. Now they are as accurate as any bullet I shoot. I noticed the CE bullets did not have the bands cut in them. That concerns me about them since I have never got a monometal bullet to shoot well without the bands.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

The 180 E-Tips used to shoot very well out of my RUM, a little better than the 210 Bergers. Not too good this year but that could be a rifle problem. That being said the 180 CE's are shooting very well for me so far with limited experience. They have a real interesting design. The bore rider out front, is seated into the lands but doesn't engage the rifling. On the .308 bullets it measures about .300 and slips right into the bore which helps align the bullet and keep it stable as it is sent down the bore. Pretty good design I think.

Cutting Edge Bullets

 

[sp6x6]

LTLR, Have you tried the Barnes 265 ttsx or the 285 tac-x ?338

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

I shot the 265's out of my 338-378 but not at game yet. Didn't try them until after hunting season. They were very accurate out of my rifle and like the 185 ttsx I was shooting in my 338 winchester I am confident they have the BC on those way low. I got them out to about 800 yards and the windage was very close to the 300 smks I was shooting at the same time. Just guestimating I would say the windage was showing easily into the .6's. This summer I am going to do some BC tests on several bullets including these. Out of your Norma they would be outstanding for long range elk. I will be testing these two Barnes, the 225 and 252 CE bullets, 250 grain Rocky mountain bullet, the 180 grain 30 cal ce bullet, the 264 caliber 130 grain scirroco and several others. I have shot that 130 scirroco for a few years and had great luck with it but I never did a bc test on it. I know it is close. I am retired with plenty of rifles, powder and bullets and nothing else to do. Very dangerous combination. I hope I am putting the 338 SIN through some heavy testing with several bullets by next weekend.

If anybody has any experience with the cutting edge bullets as far as animal kills and BC I would sure like to hear about it.