Lapua Guy, It is interesting that you think that the cartridge is the sole factor in accuracy. It is that and the action,and the barrel,and the load. If all are consistent, then a 338 edge will shoot as well as a lapua. And I am sure Shawn Carlock,with over 200 titles in state and national competition could prove that, also Id state sniper champ, 338 edge is his lrh tool of choice.
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.338 differences
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+1, the cartridge is definately not the defining factor in accuracy
I had my 338 Lapua built on a Rem-700 with the Seekins detachable box magazine that will accept an over all loaded length of 3.92" This allows for the boatail of the 300 SMK to be seated at the shoulder neck junction and reamoves the problems associated with the "donut" build up in this area
Long Time Long Ranger
Well-Known Member
Fifty is dead on with all his posts here. Let me add first with the 338 winchester and 340 wby. It is critical to match your bullets with your cartridge. I have said on here many times that in my opinion these two chamberings are best suited with lighter bullets from 250 grains on down. High BC bullets in 225 and 250 will get you out to 1000 yards with these two and perform well. In my opinion extreme range hunting with the 300 SMK starts with the Ultramag size cases which can drive the 300 grainers with enough velocity to be effective into extreme range well beyond 1000 yards. I put my 300 grain load with my 340 wby in here for comparison only. Extreme range shooting can be done with the 340 wby and the 300 SMK if you have a fast one. My 340 is a very fast one. All of my long range kills with it were done though long before their was a 300 SMK. At the time the 250 grain SGM was the highest BC of any hunting bullet made and what I built the gun around. My accuracy load with that bullet was 3056 fps and it was a killing machine to 1000 yards. With the 338 winny the best long range bullet commonly available is the 225 Accubond in my opinion. For a short range fast flat bullet the 185 TTSX from Barnes does a very nice job and I have made kills with it to right at 800 yards which is about where it falls off the table. I think the BC on that one is beyond the .432 listed.
I never said it was. Again read my posts. I LOVE the Edge. I just am having a harder time tuning them.
I agree about the Seekins DBM. I have one on my LM build as well.
Where did I say that???? I didn't. I said I was having a harder time with the edge cartridge. I love the 338 Edge, just haven't perfected loading it as accurately.
I do like the 185 TTSX a lot. And you aren't the first to claim its BC was higher than published. Never understood the draw of the Accubond over the partition though. I will say this though, you shooting right at the limits of a load, and doing it successfully at a consistent rate is impressive.
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Lapua Guy,
In a quality rifle with good ammo and shooter, there is no difference at all between the Lapua, the 338 RUM or Edge. I assure you that my numbers do not come from any CPU except my own. I realize your new here and I have not gotten the reputation I have by repeating numbers so instead of taking offense to your uneducated comments toward my experience I will give you a pass.
The Edge and the Lapua have identical case capacity, infact some lots of RUM brass will have more capacity then the Lapua.
If both are loaded to 65,000 psi which is their designed pressure ranges, they will be identical. If you hot load the Lapua just because the case can handle it you will get more velocity, big suprise. That does not mean its the right thing to do.
I would say your troubles with the Edge have to do with something in the rifle or the bullet your using. THe TTSX bullet is well known to shoot well but also it can be a very finicky bullet depending on seating depth, again, well know. I have built well over 100 Edge rifles. I use one load, 93.0 gr Retumbo under the 300 gr SMK and lit with a Fed-215 primer and seated to 3.780". I have never had one that EASILY met my 1/2 moa accuracy standard when I accuracy test my rifles before I ship them to my customers.
I have never had a problem with the Lapua either, nearly identical load.
I have never had a problem with the standard 338 RUM either, all have easily broke 1/2 moa out of freshly machined barrels.
Try a bullet that is far less sensitive to bullet seating depth and you will likely find that there are no consistancy issues with the Edge, RUM, Lapua or any other 338 magnum chambering.
Make sure the receiver is square, cut the thread fit tight and on axis, cut the chamber to min spec and on axis, make sure the throat is designed well and cut on axis and cut the crown to match specs, bed the receiver to the stock properly and you will have a sub 1/2 moa rifle no matter what the chambering is as long as the ammo is straight and shooter is up to the challange.
Simple as that. Rifle manufacturing is not rocket science. Neither is building a precision rifle, just more attention to exact detail is all, nothing more nothing less, case design has very little to anything to do with rifle accuracy in chamberings of this size class.
In a quality rifle with good ammo and shooter, there is no difference at all between the Lapua, the 338 RUM or Edge. I assure you that my numbers do not come from any CPU except my own. I realize your new here and I have not gotten the reputation I have by repeating numbers so instead of taking offense to your uneducated comments toward my experience I will give you a pass.
The Edge and the Lapua have identical case capacity, infact some lots of RUM brass will have more capacity then the Lapua.
If both are loaded to 65,000 psi which is their designed pressure ranges, they will be identical. If you hot load the Lapua just because the case can handle it you will get more velocity, big suprise. That does not mean its the right thing to do.
I would say your troubles with the Edge have to do with something in the rifle or the bullet your using. THe TTSX bullet is well known to shoot well but also it can be a very finicky bullet depending on seating depth, again, well know. I have built well over 100 Edge rifles. I use one load, 93.0 gr Retumbo under the 300 gr SMK and lit with a Fed-215 primer and seated to 3.780". I have never had one that EASILY met my 1/2 moa accuracy standard when I accuracy test my rifles before I ship them to my customers.
I have never had a problem with the Lapua either, nearly identical load.
I have never had a problem with the standard 338 RUM either, all have easily broke 1/2 moa out of freshly machined barrels.
Try a bullet that is far less sensitive to bullet seating depth and you will likely find that there are no consistancy issues with the Edge, RUM, Lapua or any other 338 magnum chambering.
Make sure the receiver is square, cut the thread fit tight and on axis, cut the chamber to min spec and on axis, make sure the throat is designed well and cut on axis and cut the crown to match specs, bed the receiver to the stock properly and you will have a sub 1/2 moa rifle no matter what the chambering is as long as the ammo is straight and shooter is up to the challange.
Simple as that. Rifle manufacturing is not rocket science. Neither is building a precision rifle, just more attention to exact detail is all, nothing more nothing less, case design has very little to anything to do with rifle accuracy in chamberings of this size class.
Long Time Long Ranger
Well-Known Member
Edd, I did some testing in one of my 26" barrel lapuas with the 265 ttsx. I got good accuracy about .3 off the lands right around 3000 fps. This was with some of my old batches of winchester WMR powder. My wife was going to shoot her deer with the load and try the bullet but I got us on a really nice buck and we went with the 225 accubond load at over 3300 fps I had been using for several years. The 225 accubond is a very good bullet for the lapua for guys that are not shooting extreme long range and shooting within a half mile or so. I took a 356 class bull with a 225 AB out of my 338-378 wby at 3440 fps two years ago at just under 1000 yards and it did a very nice job.
Lapua Guy, I am a retired engineer and was a hobby gunsmith for many years. So I liked to tinker and built many rifles for myself and others. I was very miticulous with throat designs, etc for maximum efficiency out of a cartridge. By doing many rifles and keeping the best all my go to rifles are at the top of the velocity spectrum for the chambering while still retaining top accuracy.
Since the 70's when I found the superiority of large calibers for taking large big game at long range I have focused primarily on the 338 caliber. For years that is where BC's topped out. They got better and better up to 338 and then fell off sharply. The past few years that has changed some but still that holds true pretty close. Up until the last few years I closely followed any new cartridge coming out and quickly wildcatted it to 338 to see what I could come up with. During the mid to late 90's with the lapua and ultramag cases I was just like a kid in a candy store with all the possibilities. Before then we had the 378 wby and 416 Rigby cases to work with. But it really exploded with the lapua and ultramag cases. The lapua improved being shorter, without a belt, and so efficient it was way better to work with than the old long huge cases. It would come close in velocity on a much better platform to work with.
Then in late 1998 when we got the specs on the soon to be released 300 ultramag life got even better. The Lapua could be matched on a standard magnum action. Life was good during those years for 338 wildcatters.
Lapua Guy, I am a retired engineer and was a hobby gunsmith for many years. So I liked to tinker and built many rifles for myself and others. I was very miticulous with throat designs, etc for maximum efficiency out of a cartridge. By doing many rifles and keeping the best all my go to rifles are at the top of the velocity spectrum for the chambering while still retaining top accuracy.
Since the 70's when I found the superiority of large calibers for taking large big game at long range I have focused primarily on the 338 caliber. For years that is where BC's topped out. They got better and better up to 338 and then fell off sharply. The past few years that has changed some but still that holds true pretty close. Up until the last few years I closely followed any new cartridge coming out and quickly wildcatted it to 338 to see what I could come up with. During the mid to late 90's with the lapua and ultramag cases I was just like a kid in a candy store with all the possibilities. Before then we had the 378 wby and 416 Rigby cases to work with. But it really exploded with the lapua and ultramag cases. The lapua improved being shorter, without a belt, and so efficient it was way better to work with than the old long huge cases. It would come close in velocity on a much better platform to work with.
Then in late 1998 when we got the specs on the soon to be released 300 ultramag life got even better. The Lapua could be matched on a standard magnum action. Life was good during those years for 338 wildcatters.
.3 inches? That is a lot more distance than I am used to. I normally load for a 6mm, 25-06, 7mm Rem, 300 Win and seat the bullets about .05" off the lands. Am I going to have to go back to loading school to load for a 338LM?
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Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Edd,
I have not tested the 265 gr TTSX much but have had a couple range sessions with it but in a bit different class chambering then your talking about. My first range session with this bullet in my 338 AM produced just over 3525 fps. Accuracy at 1100 yards was around 1.5 moa. Not bad and to be honest, about what I expected. This was with the bullet seated 50 thou off the lands.
I then talked to a fellow shooter that was having amazing accuracy results with this new bullet in his 338 RUM but had to seat them 0.100" off the lands.
I loaded up some new loads. When I seated the bullets deeper, my velocity dropped off because of the increased freebore so I upped the powder charge until I got to 3525 fps again.
This time I tested again at 1100 yards but I also was testing the 300 gr Rocky Mountain bullets, the 300 gr SMK and the 265 gr TTSX.
First up was the Rocky Mountain loaded to 3290 fps which shot alright, a bit less then 1 moa at 1100 yards. Next up was the 300 gr SMK loaded to 3320 fps and it gave its usual 1/2 to 3/4 moa grouping size in the 12-16 mph variable wind conditions.
The 265 gr TTSX with its new seating depth easily matched the accuracy of the SMK, in reality it was likely a bit tighter in groups but for all intent and purpose, pretty much identical.
Interestingly enough, and take it for what you will, I zeroed the rifle at 1100 yards with the 300 gr RMB. I did not make any scope adjustments for testing the other bullets. The 300 gr SMK landed 1/4 to 1/2 moa lower then the RMB. The 265 gr TTSX landed about 1/4 moa higher then the RMB....... Not saying anything about predicted BC but I was suprised to say the least.
Even more impressive. When I dug up the fired bullets. The TTSX fired into wet loose dirt, at least the ones that I could find completely expanded right to the base of the tip cavity under the plastic tip and in perfect, full X profile. Retained weight averaged 259 grains.
In comparision, the SMK will retain around 40 to 45% of its original weight fired into the same media at the same range.
I have no idea what these bullets will do in more conventional chamberings but as soon as the weather breaks, one of the first things I am going to do is test them in my 338 AX. I should be able to get 3150 fps out of them pretty easily out of the AX. I would think out to 800 yards, full expansion would be easy to get but time will tell.
Very impressed so far and I am NOT a barnes bullet fan.
The 200 gr TTSX is also up for testing in my own personal 300 AX. This bullet is longer then the 240 gr SMK and I have already proven that the 200 gr Accubond can be drive to 3500 fps in my Raptor LRSS rifles so I expect similiar velocities with the 200 gr TTSX. Excited to see.
My only concern is if they will consistantly expand on soft tissue impacts on game at long range.
Again, time will tell. Need the weather to break and some range time to find out.
I have not tested the 265 gr TTSX much but have had a couple range sessions with it but in a bit different class chambering then your talking about. My first range session with this bullet in my 338 AM produced just over 3525 fps. Accuracy at 1100 yards was around 1.5 moa. Not bad and to be honest, about what I expected. This was with the bullet seated 50 thou off the lands.
I then talked to a fellow shooter that was having amazing accuracy results with this new bullet in his 338 RUM but had to seat them 0.100" off the lands.
I loaded up some new loads. When I seated the bullets deeper, my velocity dropped off because of the increased freebore so I upped the powder charge until I got to 3525 fps again.
This time I tested again at 1100 yards but I also was testing the 300 gr Rocky Mountain bullets, the 300 gr SMK and the 265 gr TTSX.
First up was the Rocky Mountain loaded to 3290 fps which shot alright, a bit less then 1 moa at 1100 yards. Next up was the 300 gr SMK loaded to 3320 fps and it gave its usual 1/2 to 3/4 moa grouping size in the 12-16 mph variable wind conditions.
The 265 gr TTSX with its new seating depth easily matched the accuracy of the SMK, in reality it was likely a bit tighter in groups but for all intent and purpose, pretty much identical.
Interestingly enough, and take it for what you will, I zeroed the rifle at 1100 yards with the 300 gr RMB. I did not make any scope adjustments for testing the other bullets. The 300 gr SMK landed 1/4 to 1/2 moa lower then the RMB. The 265 gr TTSX landed about 1/4 moa higher then the RMB....... Not saying anything about predicted BC but I was suprised to say the least.
Even more impressive. When I dug up the fired bullets. The TTSX fired into wet loose dirt, at least the ones that I could find completely expanded right to the base of the tip cavity under the plastic tip and in perfect, full X profile. Retained weight averaged 259 grains.
In comparision, the SMK will retain around 40 to 45% of its original weight fired into the same media at the same range.
I have no idea what these bullets will do in more conventional chamberings but as soon as the weather breaks, one of the first things I am going to do is test them in my 338 AX. I should be able to get 3150 fps out of them pretty easily out of the AX. I would think out to 800 yards, full expansion would be easy to get but time will tell.
Very impressed so far and I am NOT a barnes bullet fan.
The 200 gr TTSX is also up for testing in my own personal 300 AX. This bullet is longer then the 240 gr SMK and I have already proven that the 200 gr Accubond can be drive to 3500 fps in my Raptor LRSS rifles so I expect similiar velocities with the 200 gr TTSX. Excited to see.
My only concern is if they will consistantly expand on soft tissue impacts on game at long range.
Again, time will tell. Need the weather to break and some range time to find out.
Long Time Long Ranger
Well-Known Member
Edd, typo, .03. It is not uncommon though for Barnes bullets to shoot very well .1 or further off the lands. I did quite a bit of testing with the 185 ttsx last year in a 338 winchester. It shot well .1 and further off the lands. I had to plug in BC's nearer .5 than .432 to match my drops to 800 yards. I have not tested that bullet further than that so far. I also shot the 185 to well over 3500 fps in the 338 RUM, 338-300 RUM and 338 Lapua with very good accuracy..
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'Give me a pass'? Kind of pretentious aren't you? You lost me with that part of the post. If you actually read what I posted, i was nothing but complimentary about your experience. I am not picking a fight like you seem to be. You need to work on your approach, very off putting. Thanks though.
Have you built a 338-408 yet? Kinda curious what that looks like. Also, what is you favorite of the three (RUM, Edge, Lapua). I gotta say the Edge seems to have the 'Edge' in my book, even though I haven't owned one for long.
So you are saying that your max loads are also you most accurate loads? That has not been my experience. I don't doubt you (or anyone on this board), but that is something I find very exciting. I have a buddy that makes my guns, he is a retire engineer as well, and makes guns for himself and his friends (if we beg him enough). He build my Lapua, and my Edge. What should he be doing to build a rifle to shoot those max loads more accurately?
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