338 cal 265grn wildcat bullet test

[James Jones]

So basicaly we are looking at a round thats shooting a bullet with a BC in the .900 range at a velocity in the 3400-3500fps range right? And it can be built in a gun thats in the 16-18lb range

I have to ask why anybody would want a 50 BMG ,it seems that balisticaly this round is kicking the hell out of the 50 and the gun weighs half as much.

Oh my , I'm wanting one more and more but I have a hard enough time shooting out past 600yds. you guys are killing me

 

[jwp475]

Simonw,

From Black Diamond 408s first post,

My gun loves WC872 with the 300MK, 143grns = 3300fps
Test rifle
Viersco stainless repeater action
Lone Wolf carbon stock
Lawton 33" 1-11.25 twist bbl
30moa base
IOR 6-24x50 35mm tube scope
---------------------------------

Yes a 10 twist will stabilize the 265 grain Wildcat Alluminum Tipped bullet,but not the 300 grain Aluminum Tipped bullet..........

 

[Fiftydriver]

James Jones,

Form my testing of this bullet from velocities from 2900 up to just shy of 3600 fps, I think its BC will finish out a bit higher then .900. If I had to guess right now with the numbers I am using in my 338 Allen Magnum with this bullet at 3500 fps which is a VERY mild load, its more like mid .900 range at least. In fact if I told you what BC I had to use for shooting at ranges from 1900 to 3000 yards many would simply call me a liar so I will not post that.

Ballistically, there is nothing that will run with them, YET!!!

My 375 Allen Magnum, with the right bullet should offer the same trajectory but I am predicting with 1000 ft/lbs more energy then the 338s will. All dependant on those bullet though but I know they will be coming soon. A certain bullet maker I know has a 375 AM on order already so I know he will be making the bullets!!!!

The 50 BMG is really a dog compared to these rounds. Only area it is superior is energy and thats it. But a precisely placed 338 bullet is plenty effective at any range.

This is the first bullet/cartridge/rifle combo I have tested that offered legit consistancy over 2700 yards which is the max I have found with the 300 gr SMK loaded to 3350 fps in the same rifle. In fact I have tested to slightly over 3000 yards and consistancy still seemed to be holding at that range as bullets were landing where they should be when conditions were read correctly. The rifle was holding around 1 moa at that range for the few groups I shot, I was very happy with that.

Back to the 375 version, other benefits it will have over these 338 monsters is more variaty of powder that will work very well, mainly more of the extreme powders that are not as sensitive to temp changes. Also, they will not be nearly as finicky or require the extreme barrel length. A 30" barrel should prove very capable of getting all you can out of the 375 Allen Magnum.

Also, big consideration, significantly increased bore life!!!! Recoil however will be increased as well but we can do things to control that!!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Black Diamond 408]

Goodgrouper,
I only have several left, i am going to test them very soon for expansion.

Dave

 

[Black Diamond 408]

James

I delivered a rifle to Brando in Casper, Wy this summer...dry wieght was 11# no scope. This is the lightest i have built to date. He reported back to me the gun shoots bug holes. Another long range guy with "permant grin disorder"

I sent him some of the 300grn Alum tipped bullets to try, he has a 9.4" twist bbl.

Dave

 

[edge]

A question on stability.

It appears that the aluminum tip is around 5/8 long, and aluminum is much less dense than other bullet components. Also alignment of this tip is obviously very critical, perhaps more so than a regular bullet point.

Would a bullet be easier to make and more stable with the aluminum in the tail of the bullet? I would think that a bullet with a heavy nose would be easier to stabilize. Is this wrong?

edge.

And easier to make

 

[James Jones]

just as soon as I can justify needing to shoot past 1000yds this is gonna cost me a fortune.

I guess I'm just gonna have to move !!

 

[Black Diamond 408]

James,
The first thing you need to do is buy the brass...then you can justify building the rifle. Can't have a box of brass sitting on the shelf and not have a gun to shoot them in!

 

[bwaites]

edge,

From what I have been able to pick up, bullets that are heavy in the rear stabilize and fly better, thus the hollowpoint match bullets and jacketed cavity bullets. I'm no expert and Black Diamond and fiftydriver may correct me on this.

Bill

 

[Black Diamond 408]

Im no expert on this, but here are my thoughts, if your spinning a object and its bottom heavy, it will want to stay in place, if you spin the same object and its now top heavy, it will want to reverse its self so the leading heavy edge will want to flip over. And if the heavy tip end is just a miniscule out of balance it will really go whacky. I hope this is clear as mud.

Dave

 

[edge]

Im no expert on this, but here are my thoughts, if your spinning a object and its bottom heavy, it will want to stay in place, if you spin the same object and its now top heavy, it will want to reverse its self so the leading heavy edge will want to flip over. And if the heavy tip end is just a miniscule out of balance it will really go whacky. I hope this is clear as mud.

Dave

Not an expert, but that seems counter intuitive to me. The main reason for spin stabilization is to counteract the heavy base. If you shoot a FMJ bullet into a fluid medium and it will always end up facing tail first. IMO, if you shot a bullet backward it will require much less spin, perhaps none to fly straight.

The nose out of balance issue would definitely favor a low mass product....IMO. Meaning the aluminum tip.

edge.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Edge,

What data do you have to support your comments that all bullets fired into fluid will land tail first?

I have not seen this to be true, in fact it depends largely on the way the bullet expands or does not expand.

The longer the bullet as it penetrates, the more likely it will tumble while it penetrates. The shorter the bullet length the less likely it will tumble, again this is my experience at least as far as on game penetration goes.

Some will tell you that a forward center of gravity on a bullet will be the most accurate, that may be to a certain yardage point but at extended range, again, from what I have seen, shifting the center of gravity to the rear really seems to help with long to extreme range.

All one has to do is look at all the bullet designs out there that are designed for long range shooting, all are either HP designs with large hollow cavities in the nose or they use some type of ultralightweight tip on the nose to accomplish the same thing.

These designs also add BC because they add length to the bullet. THey do this without adding much weight at all to the bullet either.

I guess the best minds out there have tested this and always come back to the similiar designs we have today.

I have seen some tests with tear dropped shaped bullets made by the military. Looked very similiar to what you would have if you took a conventional bullet, put a round on the boat tail end with a sharp nose and then turned the thing around and fired it round end first.

From the tests I read on these bullets, BC was extremely accurate but it did not compete as far as having as high of a BC as a conventional VLD design. To that point, most flat points and round nose bullets have much more consistant BCs from shot to shot then any VLD or ULD design, only problem is that the BC is extremly low.

There have also been the hollow base bullets that used to be used many years ago. They were relatively accurate out to moderate ranges but really lost if at any extended ranges.

again, I am by no means an expert on bullets, hardly but there have been alot of tests done to find the most efficent and accurate projectile design and what we have now is the top of the pile unless you get into self stabilizing projectiles which is not practical in conventional small bore designs, not yet anyway!!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[James Jones]

Any projectile will be easier to stabilize with little or no twist if it has a higher front of center balance . A very good example of this is arrows , if you take a naked arrow shaft meaning no fletchings or point at all it will have a center or slightly rearward balance point due to the knock weight, when you shoot this arro it will leave the bow VERY irradic and will likely take a sharp turn very shortly after clearing the bow , now take the same arro and put a 200gr point and it will fly pretty strait for a long way , then you add some fletching to give it even a tiny bit of spin and it will fly strait as long as its in the air. Now granted that an arrows length to weight ration is WAY off from that of a bullet so your not compairing apples to apples.
BUT , if you could get a bullet say the same basic desgine as Richards aluminum tipped bullets but instead of the tip being aluminum make it Tungston and instead of the core being lead make it out of some sort of plastic , you would likely end up with a bullet that was alot longer than the current model if they were the same weight giving a higher BC but it would take less rate of twist to stabilize because the front of center balance point would be shifted greatly to the front.
SO , you end up with a bullet thats weight is in the front basicaly pulling the projectile because the rear is wider and lighter causeing more drag and in the basic line of thought it should never begin to tumble because of the fron weight "pulling" effect

I think this was along the lines of Lost River Ballistics thinking when they desgined their bullets.

did any of that make any since to anybody casue after reading back over it it diden't make as much since to me as it did when i was typing

 

[jwp475]

A question on stability.

It appears that the aluminum tip is around 5/8 long, and aluminum is much less dense than other bullet components. Also alignment of this tip is obviously very critical, perhaps more so than a regular bullet point.

Would a bullet be easier to make and more stable with the aluminum in the tail of the bullet? I would think that a bullet with a heavy nose would be easier to stabilize. Is this wrong?

edge.

And easier to make

The Aliminum tip is I believe 1/2" in lenght. A spin stabilized projectile stabilizes best when rear heavy not nose heavy.......