308 vs 30-06 and other rounds? WHY is a 308 better?!?

[jwp475]

A slight correction here; the development of the 308/7.62x51 had nothing to do with the military wanting to reduce recoil, but case length. The original battle waged by Col. Rene Studler centered on developing a.30 cal cartridge that had (essentially) the same power as the existing .30-06 Military cartridge. In effect, that's what was acheived. The sniping versions of these two rounds used the exact same bullet for many years, the 173 grain FMJBT. In the M72 (30-06) the velocity was 2640 @ 78 ft, while the M118 (7.62x51) was only about 100 fps less, 2550 fps @ 78 ft. Performance in the field was virtually indistinguishable from one another. With the lighter 150/147 grain FMJs, perormance was almost identical. The real reason for the development of the .308 lay in its almost .5" shorter case design. For military weapons production, this has huge advantages. Weapons can be made much lighter, reliability is increased, the ammunition is lighter and the soldier can carry more, etc.. The 7.62 also uses about 5-7 grains less powder to achieve very similar performance. Not much of a concern for you or I, but it makes a tremendous difference to the military. Stop and consider that during Vietnam, Lake City Army Ammunition Plant was cranking out some 21 million rounds of ammo a day, and that was just one ammo plant in operation at that time. As you can see, that 5-7 grains suddenly becomes pretty significant.

The .308/7.62 is inherently more accurate than the .30-06, but we're talking about a pretty minor difference, and that averaged over a great many rifles. Rest assured, there's plenty of .30-06s out there that will outshoot plenty of .308s, but we're talking about individual rifles here. I wouldn't lose sleep over it, especially if I had a .30-06 that shot really well.

They're both good, and they've both done a prety good job for a lot of folks over the decades.

Good post and spot on.....

 

[linksmechanic]

Maybe, But throughout several wars and conflict my granfather led several brigades and the troops all had the same complaint: Hurt's my shoulder boss. My grandfather issued many complaints to higher officers. A couple years later the .308 was in ther're hands.

 

[Michael Eichele]

The bottom line is that both calibers (308 and 06) are very fine calibers. Nobody here can argue about the succes of either be it in competition, the battle grounds or on this site. Both have shared tremendous success in many areas.

We can argue all day about which qualities are better which is essentially what we have been doing. Actually I prefer to think of it as sharing ideas and points of views versus arguing.

Each have better qualities over the other in different aspects. NIETHER prove the other superior to the other when you concider all aspects of what makes a good cartridge.

Good thread!

 

[jwp475]

Maybe, But throughout several wars and conflict my granfather led several brigades and the troops all had the same complaint: Hurt's my shoulder boss. My grandfather issued many complaints to higher officers. A couple years later the .308 was in ther're hands.

Stcok dimensions play a huge roll in felt recoil. A poor fitting stock on a 308 was one the visious kicking rifles that I have fired and that includes a 505 Gibbs

 

[Kevin Thomas]

Maybe, But throughout several wars and conflict my granfather led several brigades and the troops all had the same complaint: Hurt's my shoulder boss. My grandfather issued many complaints to higher officers. A couple years later the .308 was in ther're hands.

Well, for what it's worth, the original specs that the ordnance corps called for in the early M14 design was a 6.5 lb rifle, selective fire, and chambered for the then-new T65 (308/7.62) cartridge. They actually achieved this in the prototypes, and the gun saw some field trials. In the original reports from the testing, they stated (with wonderful military clairity) that "when fired full-auto, the rifle is dismayingly unmanageable." Gee, ya think!? A rifle about the same weight as an M1 Carbine, chambered for a full powered .308 cartridge on full auto? You can take my turn, I'll pass! Ultimately, as finally adopted, the M14 was very close to the same weight as the M1 Garand that it replaced. Kicked about the same, too. At least, I've never noticed any significant difference between the two, and I've fired a bunch of them over the years.

You want to read the full account here (and a very interesting one it is!) check out "U.S. Rifle M14: from John Garand to the M21" from Collector Grade Publications. Some really great history stuff there.

 

[Chas1]

IMHO-I don't think recoil had anything to do with the advent of the 308 but, to be fair, Linkmechanic may have a creditable source to back up his claim. If so I would be open minded and interested in reviewing it.

 

[JRu]

My experience with 30-06:

This is a completely stock Sako TRG-S , with a selected ( factory ) 23" barrel. Top safe velocity for 190SMK was achieved with 63.6 grains of N560, 2870 fps ( 2900fps was touched with a slightly stouter load but even this one is tough on Norma brass ). I honestly can't see any .308 match that, especially with identical barrel lengths. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see 3000+ with a 26" barrel. And if there's an "inherently more accurate" caliber out there, I seriously want to have one...

My old "standard load" : 190 SMK N150 5 shots 165 yards ( 150 meters ) < 0.4 MOA c-to-c

Load development test: 190 SMK N550 3 shots 165 yards ( 150 meters ) 1/4 MOA c-to-c

Load development test ( same load than above, shot on a different day ) : 190 SMK N550 3 shots 165 yards ( 150 meters ) < 0.2 MOA c-to-c

Load development test: 190 SMK N560 3 shots 165 yards ( 150 meters ) < 1/4 MOA c-to-c , this is the 2870fps load


I can't see myself shooting ( prone, on bipod w/ sand sock ) any better with any packing weight rifle that has a hunting stock and a 3-12x scope with fixed parallax.

My take on 30-06 is that it offers good barrel life and accuracy combined with a wide selection of bullet weights, its Achille's Heel is really the 100- year burden of old rifles, thus low CIP/SAAMI pressures. With a modern rifle it can be made to reach quite a bit further. I don't think it's "practically the same as .308Win just in long action" , but YMMV.

 

[justgoto]

Have been run as high as 2600.

Where are your numbers for the 06?

I'll go by the scientific procedure Hornady uses for my evidence thanks.

 

[Michael Eichele]

*****

Where are your numbers for the 06?

About 2750

I'll go by the scientific procedure Hornady uses for my evidence thanks.

You do that

 

[justgoto]

I know you think it does, but no; an attitude does not trump scientific evidence.

I will go with the scientifically arrived at evidence before bias every single time.

 

[Michael Eichele]

I am sorry if my response to yours equaled the same condesending tone. Wasnt my intent.

If you want scientifec (not intending to be a smart *** here) test one of each. Equal barrel lengths, twists and similar bore qualities. Find the optimum powder for each, work up to max loads and back off 2 grains each. I think you will find results much different than Hornaday's. I have never seen any other manual that displays such a disparaging difference between the two nor have I ever been able reach such a wide spread between them. Hornaday is only one of many 'credible' manufacturers that work up data.

If that is not scientifec enough for your liking, I challenge you to look at others such as sierra, hodgdon, and nosler and see what they also have to say.

I will concede that I do not own the Hornaday manual. I do own quite a few others. Between those and the hodgdon web site, there is no evidence whatsoever that the 06 is 400 FPS faster with equal bulet weights even with different barrels. Or 300 FPS for that matter. Like I said before, I like both. They are both very proven as capable rounds. My point here is the difference between the 2 is shorter than 300-400 FPS based on any manuals I have or have read or other published data or my own development (which is of no value here).

Again, sorry if my attitude upset you.

 

[jwp475]

For those wanting facts; For every 10% increase in case volume you will only get a 2 1/2% increase in velocity at the same pressure.

The 30-06 does not have enough case capacity increase over the 308 to have a 3 to 400 FPS velcity advantage

 

[justgoto]

For those wanting facts; For every 10% increase in case volume you will only get a 2 1/2% increase in velocity at the same pressure.

The 30-06 does not have enough case capacity increase over the 308 to have a 3 to 400 FPS velcity advantage

You better go tell Hornady they are wrong!

I love how these debates go... 3 30-06 vs 308 debates ago he conceded the 3 to 400fps but held strong on the better accuracy. Now that the accuracy angle has been addressed, everything the experts know needs to be thrown out!


I'll skip the next 30-06 vs 308 argument as always; and see the usual characters the debate after!

 

[iSnipe]

I'll skip the next 30-06 vs 308 argument...

Thank You!

iSnipe