.308 Project -seeking advice-

[Ripper]

Like you, my statement on 1:11 twist was based on experience. I have a buddy that has a 28" 1:11 twist 308 and he shoots the 208 grain Amax with tremendous accuracy and they stay stable well beyond 1k (seen it done)

In the end, my advice would be to go with 1:11 or 1:10 as that will stabilize the heavy bullets where the 1:12 will not.

I have a lot to learn here.

It seems a 28" barrel is real long for a .308? The length for the Army M24 and M40 (the same I believe) are is 26" or so? With that in mind how am I going to achieve the max FPS out of the break? With accuracy and muzzle velocity in mind what should I be looking at for barrel length?

What is your intended purpose fo this gun? All around, Fclass, etc

Here are some thoughts to consider.

If you want the most current info on shooting the 308, go to the "long range target shooting" site linked below. The top palma and F class guys are here and they have some very good insite on reamers in particular. They know all the best combo bullet/twist/reamers and throat combos and there is plenty of discussions there for you to read.

Absolutely no better place for info on the 308.

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IMO the last bullet you want to set up a 308 for is the 168 SMK. It will not normally reach 1000 as it loses stability most of the time at 900 or so. So why even use it for anything, either go to the 175/185 or one of the new 155s.

Either go with the 175 SMK/185 Berger or something similar OR one of the new 155s and set the gun up for it. Both will reach 1000 and more but require substantially different throats in particular and twists (1-11 vs 1-13) according to most.

Now there are certain reamers that will allow use of most bullets with trade offs at one end or the other and seem to work well.

You have 3 different new 155s and they all vary in throat requirements and a longer throat (for 175 plus) will give you a lot of jump when using the 155s in that throat.

Call Dave Kiff at Pacific Tool and Gauge and discuss reamers with him as he has a couple very good specialty and overall use 308 reamers he recommends. Buy your own and keep it for rebarrelling later.

Better plan on a 20 MOA base too also as the 175/185 at 2650 will normally take 38 MOA to get to 1000 and the 155s will be 2-3 MOA less.

BH

Ok so 168 Gn is out of the question now. I was always under the assumption that 168 was premier. I guess
I called Dave Kiff like you said; but i'm not sure exactly what I am going to be going so I told him I would email him what I needed later on. He's working on some R700 bolt replacements that have the 3 point safety shroud I want installed which is a plus.

I have to go off of reccommendation since I don't even know what I need.

I will check out that website and ask a few question's. But I will say I have a lot of help here and I appreciate it much

What type of ring's are on this rifle below that has this rail on top of it? And what is it for?



Many thanks gentlemen!
Cheers,
RiP

 

[trebark]

It seems a 28" barrel is real long for a .308? The length for the Army M24 and M40 (the same I believe) are is 26" or so? With that in mind how am I going to achieve the max FPS out of the break? With accuracy and muzzle velocity in mind what should I be looking at for barrel length?

Generally speaking, most general-purpose rifles come with 24" barrels, varmint rifles 26". Conventional wisdom on custom barrels is generally the extremes - some guys like 20" and others like 28" (the guys that shoot Palma matched like 30"+). It all comes down to your needs and preferences. Personally, my new 260 (308 necked down to .264) has a 28" barrel so that I can wring out every bit of velocity that I can. Of course, with that long barrel, I have no plans to take that rifle into a pile of brush.

Although it might seem long to you now, from the sounds off what you're saying and the pics you're posting, I think 26" or 28" is the barrel length you're looking for. Either will give you good velocities and better accuracy than a 'normal' barrel.

Ok so 168 Gn is out of the question now. I was always under the assumption that 168 was premier.

168 is still a good bullet, but they do tend to lose it at about 900 yards. The 155grain bullets are what they shoot in Palma matches. In order to get them to go to 1k they have to push them at max velocities. That's why they like the 30" barrels. Because the 155grain bullets require a slow twist (1:13) it would pretty much limit you to the 155grain bullets. I would counsel you to twist your barrel a little faster (1:11 or 1:10) and shoot the heavier bullets like 175, 185, 190 and 210grainers. My buddy with a 28" barrel 308 with 1:11 twist shoots 208grain Hornady Amax bullets with 48grains of RL17 at 2650fps. It is awesome!

What type of ring's are on this rifle below that has this rail on top of it? And what is it for?

I don't know who manufactured those rings, but I can tell you that the rail on top of the front ring is for adding accessories. In this case I would say it's for adding night-vision equipment. You can also get rings with rails on the side so that you can mount other equipment like flashlights, laser sites etc. You will also often see bubble-levels incorporated into the top of the rear ring. This helps eliminate canting of the rifle.

 

[bowhunthard88]

Ok so 168 Gn is out of the question now. I was always under the assumption that 168 was premier.

I don't know if 168 gr. is really out of the question. Having limited experience out to 1000, and much more experience at 600 and under, is it only the SMK or all 168 gr. .308 bullets? Personally I shoot the 168 gr. A-MAXes (awesome out to 600 anyway, becomes subsonic @ about 1160 yds.), and I know quite a few people who shoot the 168 gr. VLDs.

So is it the 168 gr. bullet in general? Or is it the ogive shape of the 168 gr. SMK?

 

[sniper762mm]

ripper, you can push/pull the match grade (m852) or the m118, m24 rounds and replace the projos with sierra 165gr. hpbt gamekings for hunting with a negligable change in zero.

 

[Ripper]

Can someone explain to me a little bit about what a recoil lug does? Does it improve accuracy and decrease recoil?

This is the big question that will save time for myself and other's. Is there something I can look at that breaks down parts of a rifle like this. Like the barrel for example which part is which. Parts of the stock, parts of bolt, etc. A lot to ask but a diagram would do me a lot of justic if someone knows where a good pdf download is or something with good pictures and the breakdown.

Thanks a million!
Cheers,
RiP

 

[NomadPilot]

Here's a 700 schematic.

Schematic for Remington® Model 700 DM - World's Largest Supplier of Firearm Accessories, Gun Parts and Gunsmithing Tools

Quality's not great, but you get the idea.

 

[trebark]

Can someone explain to me a little bit about what a recoil lug does? Does it improve accuracy and decrease recoil?

Nomad gave you a pretty good schematic that will breakdown the major parts of a rifle. Let me be more specific on the recoil lug....

First, a recoil lug is a small piece of steel, almost a washer, between the barrel and the action (the barrel screws threw it).

It can increase accuracy because many factory recoil lugs are not precision made. They can have some variance in thickness which means the barrel may not seat squarely against it. This is why most people replace the factory lug when they rebarrel.

It does not reduce felt recoil. If anything, it might increase felt recoil. The recoil lug functions to transfer recoil from the barrel to the stock. By having your action bedded into the stock, you get positive fit between action/recoil lug/stock....

 

[BountyHunter]

Sounds like you want a general purpose 308.

24" LV/HV contour with throat for 175 smk in 1-11 twist.

That is a bread and butter setup for the 308.

Lapua brass, BR2 or WLR primers and 44-46 grains of Varget and shoot em.

You can go to 1200 or more with the 175s, just as cheap and easy to load as the 168 and same with the heavier bullets.

The 175 SMK will do everything you want now and then some.

Learn the basics of the 308 with the 175 SMK and then expand into other bullets.

BH

 

[trebark]

Sounds like you want a general purpose 308.

24" LV/HV contour with throat for 175 smk in 1-11 twist.

That is a bread and butter setup for the 308.

Lapua brass, BR2 or WLR primers and 44-46 grains of Varget and shoot em.

You can go to 1200 or more with the 175s, just as cheap and easy to load as the 168 and same with the heavier bullets.

The 175 SMK will do everything you want now and then some.

Learn the basics of the 308 with the 175 SMK and then expand into other bullets.

BH

I would vary from this only slightly....

26" barrel

RL17 rather than Varget

 

[Ripper]

Here's a 700 schematic.

Schematic for Remington® Model 700 DM - World's Largest Supplier of Firearm Accessories, Gun Parts and Gunsmithing Tools

Quality's not great, but you get the idea.

Thanks for that. I need to learn more about the parts so I am not using everyone's time up with so many question's. I am going to be stationed in Fort Carson, CO here in a few months. Hopefully I can find a way to make it up a bit north and go to the school of trades there and take some gunsmith courses.

Nomad gave you a pretty good schematic that will breakdown the major parts of a rifle. Let me be more specific on the recoil lug....

First, a recoil lug is a small piece of steel, almost a washer, between the barrel and the action (the barrel screws threw it).

It can increase accuracy because many factory recoil lugs are not precision made. They can have some variance in thickness which means the barrel may not seat squarely against it. This is why most people replace the factory lug when they rebarrel.

It does not reduce felt recoil. If anything, it might increase felt recoil. The recoil lug functions to transfer recoil from the barrel to the stock. By having your action bedded into the stock, you get positive fit between action/recoil lug/stock....

Sounds like you want a general purpose 308.

24" LV/HV contour with throat for 175 smk in 1-11 twist.

That is a bread and butter setup for the 308.

Lapua brass, BR2 or WLR primers and 44-46 grains of Varget and shoot em.

You can go to 1200 or more with the 175s, just as cheap and easy to load as the 168 and same with the heavier bullets.

The 175 SMK will do everything you want now and then some.

Learn the basics of the 308 with the 175 SMK and then expand into other bullets.

BH

I would vary from this only slightly....

26" barrel

RL17 rather than Varget

Am I going to have to ask to have a recoil lug added or is that a pretty standard piece for gunsmith's to add in? And do certain lugs differenciate in level's of quality?

I picked out a barrel contour finally. I am going to go with a Rock River's M24/M40 contour and have them thread for muzzle break, end cap and maybe a can down the road when I leave NY.

How good are the bolt's etc. that Pacific Tool and Gauge makes compared to the Stiller bolt? I am also considering D.D. Ross's work. To many to choose from...

I have to get on the ball as far as picking the bottom metal soon so I can get the information to Manner's for cutting.

Exciting yet frustrating with this decision proccess.

Thanks again gent's,
Cheers,
RiP

 

[trebark]

Am I going to have to ask to have a recoil lug added or is that a pretty standard piece for gunsmith's to add in? And do certain lugs differenciate in level's of quality?

Recoil lug is a 'must-have'. Gunsmith will probably have a preference as to what he likes, go with his recommendation. The only time you might not discuss it much is with custom actions. Some Stiller actions and probably others, the recoil lug is integral to the action.

I picked out a barrel contour finally. I am going to go with a Rock River's M24/M40 contour and have them thread for muzzle break, end cap and maybe a can down the road when I leave NY.

Nice.

How good are the bolt's etc. that Pacific Tool and Gauge makes compared to the Stiller bolt? I am also considering D.D. Ross's work. To many to choose from...

Hopefully someone else will be able to chime in with some advice here. All of my builds have been done with Rem700 actions and bolts so I don't have any experience with custom bolts.

I have to get on the ball as far as picking the bottom metal soon so I can get the information to Manner's for cutting.

What's the rush? why not let your 'smith order the stock?

 

[BountyHunter]

Stay with the Stiller bolt. You will not get any better than that. PTG might even be making the bolts for stiller, as they are for many others.

I believe that stillers action comes with a trued recoil lug. That is the way I would go and not buy anything else.

Try the RL15 and 17 powders along with Varget.

By stillers 20 MOA base also

FYI, if you have to wait on the action, Dave Tooley is selling his Orion action (made by Stiller to his specs). Couple interesting points, the bolt comes with either the M16 or Sako extractor which is a definite upgrade and the bolt is melanite coated (extreme hardening coating for industrial tools that is about $80 aftermarket upgrade). Comes with trued recoil lug, 8x40 screw holes and only $830 and as of couple weeks ago, they were in stock ready to ship. Bolt handle is already threaded ($50) for your choice of aftermarket bolt knobs too saving more money. see www.tooleycustomrifles for contact info.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f37/tooley-orion-action-pics-requested-56798/

Wyatts and Seekins makes good bottom metal too and little cheaper.

I have a tooley orion with wyatts being finished now in 6.5x47.

BH

 

[Ripper]

Recoil lug is a 'must-have'. Gunsmith will probably have a preference as to what he likes, go with his recommendation. The only time you might not discuss it much is with custom actions. Some Stiller actions and probably others, the recoil lug is integral to the action.



Nice.



Hopefully someone else will be able to chime in with some advice here. All of my builds have been done with Rem700 actions and bolts so I don't have any experience with custom bolts.



What's the rush? why not let your 'smith order the stock?

I ordered the stock already as to cut down on turn around time. One reason I am doing all of this is to make sure I am don't get south ended like I did last time and to learn. To make a long story short I waited for 13 months for a smith in Texas to finish a rifle I paid $3500 for that wouldn't even chamber right w/o me assisting the round 1/4 of the time.

Stay with the Stiller bolt. You will not get any better than that. PTG might even be making the bolts for stiller, as they are for many others.

I believe that stillers action comes with a trued recoil lug. That is the way I would go and not buy anything else.

Try the RL15 and 17 powders along with Varget.

By stillers 20 MOA base also

FYI, if you have to wait on the action, Dave Tooley is selling his Orion action (made by Stiller to his specs). Couple interesting points, the bolt comes with either the M16 or Sako extractor which is a definite upgrade and the bolt is melanite coated (extreme hardening coating for industrial tools that is about $80 aftermarket upgrade). Comes with trued recoil lug, 8x40 screw holes and only $830 and as of couple weeks ago, they were in stock ready to ship. Bolt handle is already threaded ($50) for your choice of aftermarket bolt knobs too saving more money. see www.tooleycustomrifles for contact info.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f37/tooley-orion-action-pics-requested-56798/

Wyatts and Seekins makes good bottom metal too and little cheaper.

I have a tooley orion with wyatts being finished now in 6.5x47.

BH

That's some good information BH; thanks. I might have to look in to the Orion by Tooley if it has all of that. So you say they have some in stock now? I will look in to it.

Thanks to you both!
Cheers,
RiP

 

[Ripper]

I'm looking for a BM that will work w/ the Stiller's precision bolt and action. Hopefully Pacific Tool and Gauge builds the Stiller's precision bolt as they add the 3 point safety shroud i'm wanting to go with for this rifle.

Speaking of magazine's; is there another preferred that hangs with the H.S precision in terms of quality? Or is that the way to go. If so; can someone list a couple or few BM's that work well with the H.S Precision mag's?

Again; thanks a lot!
Cheers,
RiP