300gn Scenar at 2700 yards

Everyone who thinks that questioning things has no effect on how troops should ask a sniper who has been there and lost friends there.

During the last thread on the history channel sniper show I asked my brother in law if he had caught it and he had not so he finally caught it and I asked him what he though. He said it was hard to see one of the shots cause he was just down the road and the sniper was a friend, he then related the back story of that engagement.
I then got him to check out the thread, the next time I talked to him he said that he would never visit this site again due to the disrespect displayed to military members with actual combat experience in the thread, this shocked me so I asked him about what he saw and he explained a lot on what these things do to the troops moral.

If you think that going over these shots and tossing out our BS flags doesn't affect a sniper and what he thinks you are dead wrong, period.

My brother in law went 3 rounds in Iraq as a Marine sniper and they shoot and know there weapons better than anyone on this site, he related in one night his team shot over 400 rounds, that's one night they shoot a lot!! Some amazing shooting that obviously know one will believe.

These stories, true or not are very important to the actual sniper in the field. At this time of year and in this time in history troop moral is hanging by a thread and if you don't think discussions like this don't hurt then you need think again.

Just my two cents, I have definite thought on this particular shot but an internet forum is not a place to go over it.

Remember our troops tomorrow, with gratefulness and honor!!!!

Case and point. +1 and thanks for sharing. What some don't realize is the bond between soldiers is stronger than most friendships. Thanks for sharing and tell him Thank you from an ex-soldier.

Tank

Any number of us said 3 for 3 was a tall tale to believe. Turns out it wasn't 3 for 3. Best as I can tell, there was never even a third hit now. To get others to cower in submission to your take on the article?

BTW, did you ask this contact if they practice at ranges farther than where the bullets start tumbling? I'd be curious if they waste their time and ammo trying to hit targets when the bullets are tumbling sideways. And if they do, exactly what benefit that serves other than to get used to the muzzle blast and recoil.

1. I've been saying 2 down since the beginning not 2 and a machine gun or 3.

2. I'm really not that scary that I want people to cower under my submission, guess I am a little more PC and care about my fellow brothers and sisters in arms.

3. Believe what you want, but my guess is that due to the terrain and the enemy at hand, it isn't out of the realm of possibility that they practice at this level of marksman ship. I know for a fact that they practice to 1500 yards with 300WM, 338LM, and 50 cal's. Not sure if you have been following the threads on the sight, but there are bullets (Hornady HPBT 250, Scenar HPBT, FMJBT 250) in 338 do to their Secant ogive can and will fly through the transonic period retaining stability. Everybody knows that the Sierra has trouble with this transition. Sierra is not the only bullet used in the Military arsenal. Matter of fact, the U.S. has transitioned to more accurate munitions utilizing the Hornady A-max 750grn for more accurate fire for extreme long range. That is what was used by the Canadian sniper out of his TAC 50 for an initial known record of 2450yrds (+/- 20 yards) in 2004.

Another valid argument to this discussion is that the Military is currently trying to decide on a bigger caliber for farther engagements. They are finding the 223 is not up to the task. Current engagements are between 600 and 800 meters. This has put a serious need for squad level marksman that carry the M14 revamped to catch up with current gear. They are using these with great effect, but want to put a bigger bullet in the hands of a common infantryman as well. They are really looking at the Creedmore and SPC. So long range is definitely the practicing norm right now.

Tank
 
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I agree that it's contrary to the basic concept of a forum.

First, it's somewhat sad that comments made on an internet forum (discussion place) on an unlikely event are interpreted by some as some sort of an attack on honor.

It is not the discussion of the shots it is how men who have served where treated when they brought experience to the thread, every one of them walked of the thread.

These discussions are more about being right than exercising freedom, so hiding be hind the skirts of Freedom, some will argue about things that have so little actual value to us but mean a great deal to those who are securing our freedom.
Why not just pull on our big boy shorts and let these guys do there job without beating it to death in public. But that will not happen, I know because to many of us, with our flag of freedom have to be right about everything and have to make it known to the world on an internet forum.

Should this kind of stuff be talked about and mulled over in such a public forum, from History, has anything good come from the public debate of military actions, can it help the moral of the troops, are our troops coming back and feeling supported and honored, not one I have talked to.
I will suspend a little freedom in a public forum if it would help one single member of the armed forces feel appreciation, after all some have given up the freedom to live for our freedom.

Remember all the white crosses, here and on foreign ground today, and thanks to all the Service members here!!!
 
It is not the discussion of the shots it is how men who have served where treated when they brought experience to the thread, every one of them walked of the thread.

These discussions are more about being right than exercising freedom, so hiding be hind the skirts of Freedom, some will argue about things that have so little actual value to us but mean a great deal to those who are securing our freedom.
Why not just pull on our big boy shorts and let these guys do there job without beating it to death in public. But that will not happen, I know because to many of us, with our flag of freedom have to be right about everything and have to make it known to the world on an internet forum.

Should this kind of stuff be talked about and mulled over in such a public forum, from History, has anything good come from the public debate of military actions, can it help the moral of the troops, are our troops coming back and feeling supported and honored, not one I have talked to.
I will suspend a little freedom in a public forum if it would help one single member of the armed forces feel appreciation, after all some have given up the freedom to live for our freedom.

Remember all the white crosses, here and on foreign ground today, and thanks to all the Service members here!!!


big,

Not that it's going to change your mind or anybody's mind, but, at least in this current thread, I don't see anyone specifically beating the armed forces.

This is simply a discussion of ballistics--nothing more and nothing less.

The reported (having been reported on quite a bit, I always take the accuracy of any press report with a very large grain of salt) situation simply raised some red flags and will continue to do so.

There is nothing you can do to stop it. It is not wrong...it is not right...it simply is.

I take offense at those who might denigrate my patriotism because I'm here discussing the relative merits of the ballistics of a situation that has been made public. I also take offense at those who denigrate the military or sniper said to have taken this shot and use this press report to do so. IMHO, it is very likely that there is quite a bit more to the story than has been reported and we should be careful to judge the 'reported' actions of those reportedly involved.

However, judging the ballistic merits of what has been reported is a straightforward matter, the discussion of which should ensue in a manner respectful and mindful of what our military does for us, keeping in mind that we may only know a part of the story.

Just my .02,

Jon
 
OK if you think I have no idea what it is like sitting at home wounding if my family and friends are save over there your wrong I have many of them over in the box and 4 are snipers with that said no one here is trashing the troops they are just saying that it was a lucky shoot and it took several rounds down range to do it so if the military is taking that as a dis on them then maybe they should site back and listen to what is being said. If you don't think it was luck then your wrong any one of my sniper friends when they come home with storys of long kills they even admit alot of there shoots were all luck
 
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It would seem that you have taken what I was trying to say wrong, I apologize for my poor way with words.
In part I was relating to another thread that went a little ugly at times, not this thread.
 
Several have stated this in different ways at different times. Let me state it my way. The primary issue being discussed is the credibility of the journalist who reported on a sniper shot(s). I want the press to report correctly, and when they blunder, I want them held accountable. For whatever the reason, our press has historically gotten it more or less right, rather than absolutely wrong, so many have come to respect these journalistic articles after they hit the press as the facts and nothing but the facts. I've dealt with the press and know first-hand that they get confused over the details on subject matter they know little about. Especially journalists working for smaller companies. They don't seem to come back to get their final draft proofed by the individuals they've interviewed. They head straight to press, errors and all. I never even considered the fact that a sniper is fabricating a tall tale, if that's the insinuation. It's all been about a published article, created by a human being - a jounalist. And did he hit the mark? Or did he miss it.

Questioning the validity of the journalist's article, secondarily led into the more interresting exchange covering the state of the art capabilities of shoulder-fired rifles of the types used by our snipers and our allies' snipers. A fairly extensive discussion and consideration of all facets if riflery associated with making hits at these extrordinary ultra-long ranges.

With respect to the question of "from History, has anything good come from the public debate of military actions, can it help the moral of the troops, are our troops coming back and feeling supported and honored, not one I have talked to." In my life, perhaps the prime example (because it hit personally close to home) of where our Commander's in Chief and the military leaders beholden to those administrative powers needed full public debate was the Vietnam War. If the troops feel like the debate is targeting them as individuals? Well we cannot control how others interpretate a valid public debate. The second best example - IMO - that needed a full and lengthy debate is exactly how did we get convinced to go to war with Iraq, predominantly on the belief that they had weapons of mass destruction and would surely some day come to use them against us or our allies. What about North Korea, a country that does have the nuclear bomb. Or Iran, the current pick of the day for destabilization with regard to world security and our national security. Did we spend our military efforts over personal ambitions prematurely, rather than after a complete and valid assessment of all risks posed to our national security?

No public debate is a recipe for disaster. No public debate cripples a true democracy. Full public debate can, and usually does, strengthen it. At least over the long haul. In the interim period, things can admitedly, get a little fiesty.
 
Several have stated this in different ways at different times. Let me state it my way. The primary issue being discussed is the credibility of the journalist who reported on a sniper shot(s).

Got to wave the BS flag big time on that one. !!!!!!! BS BS BSgun)

You owe me a new keyboard by the way, I spit crown and coke thru my nose even reading that.

Suddenly deciding it is discussing journalism credibility defies anyone here having any common sense at all and is like discussing virture in a cat house.

First off, everyone knows that journalists have no credibility 99.999% of the time anyway.

It absolutely defies credibilty for you believe that anyone here is stupid enough to remotely believe that is why this started.

Public debate is not challenging the military members credibility, which is what was done repeatedly!! Boy that is a sweet piece of CYA and back pedaling.

This started as usual for one reason and one reason only, the self important ones had to thump their chests as suddenly they were not center stage here.

Also as usual, only when it gets hot around here does the conversation suddenly take a turn to take the heat off the naysayers. Same thing happened with the 300 Varminter thread, oooh suddenly it was about safety after the BS gets thrown back in the naysayers faces.

Phorwarth, you and others have flogged that log long enough, let it lie and retain some dignity.

It is time for this thread to close.

BH
 
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Got to wave the BS flag big time on that one. !!!!!!! BS BS BSgun)

You owe me a new keyboard by the way, I spit crown and coke thru my nose even reading that.

Suddenly deciding it is discussing journalism credibility defies anyone here having any common sense at all and is like discussing virture in a cat house.

First off, everyone knows that journalists have no credibility 99.999% of the time anyway.

It absolutely defies credibilty for you believe that anyone here is stupid enough to remotely believe that is why this started.

Public debate is not challenging the military members credibility, which is what was done repeatedly!! Boy that is a sweet piece of CYA and back pedaling.

This started as usual for one reason and one reason only, the self important ones had to thump their chests as suddenly they were not center stage here.

Also as usual, only when it gets hot around here does the conversation suddenly take a turn to take the heat off the naysayers. Same thing happened with the 300 Varminter thread, oooh suddenly it was about safety after the BS gets thrown back in the naysayers faces.

Phorwarth, you and others have flogged that log long enough, let it lie and retain some dignity.

It is time for this thread to close.

BH

BH,
I'm afraid you'll have to toast yourself with your own drinks on this Post, because there's nothing of merit justifying your party atmosphere. You've blessed us with your pre-eminent wisdom in such a simplistic manner. Simplicity can be very self-serving in and of itself. No meat in the statements, no accountability. By the way, it's phorwath, not phorwarth, if spelling matters. You offered the information on the Crown and Coke? Believe it or not (your belief system is very selective at the moment), there's a lot of wisdom in practicing restraint until sober.

But since I'm aware of your restraint, turn the heat on. Bring on the meat. Spell out the CYA and backpedling for us all. You're waving the flag like a dog wags a tail. Provide the meat to substantiate your grandstanding. Then, if there's merit to your allegations, maybe others will be toasting with you, on behalf of your leadership skills.

Because so many must obviously be less wise than thou, could you have some patience and understanding and take the time to provide the less endowed with the BH version of "why this started". I'm always interested in insights into the mind of the genious. Go ahead and back yourself into a corner. Then I predict we'll either see some real CYA and back peddling, or else a shooting star - that couldn't sustain the flame.

You're pretty full of yourself. You just win a major competition? If so - hat's off to you. If not, you might want to let the alcohol metabolize before gearing up for battle.
 
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Phorwath (are you happy now and your panties untwisted)

Your presumptive skills at delusions that part of one simple C&C will obscure your naive attempt at backpedaling is truly remarkable but indicative and true to character.

FYI I was having a C&C because I had just got back from Arlington (it is Memorial Day) visiting the grave of a friend of mine I served with (Col Bob Howard) and I was remembering the first friend I lost 36 years ago (Sgt Paul Pikey) while in SF. I missed Bobs funeral a couple months ago as I was traveling for the USMC and Paul's funeral was the first time I was a military pallbearer and he was a close friend. All six of of his friends to include me were shaking like a dog sh--ing razor blades while folding that flag and handing it to his mother and sister. I always have one drink on this day when remembering Paul and all the others that are buried and even missing. I even remember the faces of the ones I looked over a sight at. Trust me, those memories you do not forget, especially on Memorial Day and they authorize a drink. Paul would have demanded it anyway. :D But hardly a drunken stupor or the need for any alcohol to metabolize.

That is also why this tread that has mistakely been allowed to go on for weeks and basically challenges the credibility of a good military person finally rubbed my last nerve on this day.

I sat silently while the so called experts who "fired a $1000 dollars of components at a mountainside and said it could not be done, they could not do it therefore it did not happen in effect". Let me enlighten you frickin experts of you own self importance, $1000 is "ammo dust" in the military world. That is fired in one day easy by one guy. Then I watched the "camp followers" as they jumped in and show their ignorance too.

To see the backpedaling today about this being journalistic credibility was the icing on the cake.

Your arguement that this was about journalistic credibility is just like the liberal arguement "Of course we are for the military, buuttt....". Are you really that naive that you think anyone believes that?

Your first mistake was even thinking that the real and whole story was ever told to the reporter. Never ever give reporters any information is the rule!

Your second mistake was thinking that a reporter was going to tell the whole boring truth if they know it. BS, his job is to make it a story that sells as long as it has some truth; maybe. 9 misses to get on target do not sell the story.

Of course you and others were questioning the credibility of the sniper at the root of the arguement. It was never anything else and no one with an IQ of 5 believes that crap about journalistic credibility now.

You and others did it repeatedly when it was said, "because we cannot do it; the bullet has to be unstable because I have shot at the moutainside; and because I cannot do it and say so, therefore it cannot be done" as the basic arguements all the way thru until recently. Last I knew journalistic credibility does not play in those arguements anywhere.

Lo and behold people prove it could be done and panic sets in. Oh my, What excuse will we use now?

I know, "This was really about journalistic credibility all along!" Let's see how you implemented that strategy discussing journalistic credibility.

Lets see, it cannot be repeated as you said, which you really means it did not happen in the first place. Or did I miss your real intent? Parden me, in my drunken stupor, I forgot, it was the journalist you were really talking about right? In my drunken stupor, I thought if a record was repeated it was no longer a record.

You stated you "doubted the bullets ability to expand", which really meant once again it was not done, as he surely could not have really killed someone; ergo it did not happen and no one was killed. Oops again, I forgot, it was the journalist, right? Somehow in my drunken stupor I just do not connect those dots, maybe someone else understood that connection as they were buying the Brooklyn Bridge.

I'm always interested in insights into the mind of the genious.

I will bet you are since it is "genius"! Maybe you have had one or two? A real concern for journalistic credibility would have never allowed that mistake.

Bet you did not think I would catch that in my drunken stupor as you so eloquently implied, just like you did not really challenge the sniper.

Of course it was luck, that is why it has only been done once (so far) but in the real military world, enemy in the open about to fire on your buddies, you light his *** up no matter what the range if nothing else to keep his head down. If you are close, keep laying it in there. That is the rule of war. That makes it a lot like golf; bad shot and good shot, lucky shot or skilled shot; they all count the same in the end! Hit two bad guys and you have had a really good day, no matter how it got there.

I surely understand how you would consider this explanation simplistic and that attitude explains it all perfectly.

I am not full of myself, but I have served and bled and continue to do so and and have more than earned the right to call ******** when I see it in reference to a bunch of so called self appointed armchair experts on what did or did not happen and what is real in combat.

What I want to know is just where and how did the team of self appointed experts earn the right to challenge it?

Let the dog lie, you continually prove my point.

BH
 
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OK bh if you are looking for a ****ing mach I will give you something to **** and moan about it is plan and simple that bullet is not stable at 2700yrds that is basic and any one that has any idea of how ballistics work knows that and as Kirby goes he has alot of respect because of all the testing he has done and the high end guns he builds so if you think he is wrong and the ballistics are wrong then you know nothing it is plan and simple the sniper got lucky and good for him by getting lucky he saved lives and that is what it is all about bring them home safe so just come off your high horse and open you eyes
 
BH,
There's really nothing here to respond to.

All I know about this event is what a journalist reported. Believe it or not, the majority of people do believe the press.

You've aired your belief that Forum members who question this journalist's report derive pleasure from denigrating a military sniper. I don't see any basis for it. This backpeddling you've repeatedly made reference to - I don't see it. Nothing has been stated that required backpeddling. You've come closer in your statements than any of the other members have in this Thread to typing statements requiring backpeddling, and you're clearly proud of it.

In my line of work, there is little more dangerous than a person that doesn't know what they don't know, and then they proceed to implement. Your presumption to know the mind of another man or woman - that puts you in that category. Doesn't matter how many battles you've fought. Your presumption to know the minds and motives of other members posting on this forum, and then acting on it, places you over the edge. Judge and jury.

There's no basis for your conclusions. It's simply your opinion, unsupported by reference to any statements made in any post. You've made what you chose to make out of this Thread, and finally decided to jump in and speak your peace of mind. Good for you. I don't doubt that you feel you've "earned it". Doesn't make it right. All it means is you don't like my posts or the posts of others. We must be anti-something, anti-establishment, anti-military, anti-sniper, anti-conservative, anything to stir up the wrath of the masses and get the ball rolling. Simply because we don't see it your way. You really haven't articulated what that awful "something" is with any clarity. Because if you did, then your contentions would be exposed as the by-product of an axe-to-grind miss-guided imagination. And you'd be the one doing the CYA backpeddling. Your other option - delete your post after-the-fact, as you've practiced in the past.

I'll classify this as the shooting star scenario. The better of the two possibilities. Unable to sustain the flame. Take your own valued advice and let the dog (your judge & jury deductions) lie.
 
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Pitbull

Of course it was certainly luck and the bullet was probably unstable. Never any question. However the shots happened contrary to what the experts here are implying, that is regardless of how many mountainsides were shot with a $1000 of components.

We know now that there were 9 sighters and no one here has accurate info on the MG hit at all to say if it happened or not. My personel guess is it may not have. We also know that a similar incident has happened with 5 shots, 5 kills in 28 seconds at over 2000 meters with same gun/bullet combo so there is extreme accuracy in the setup no matter what anyone here says. That there is no doubt.

BOTTOM LINE: Because someone here says no and cannot do it does not make it so either.

FYI this site is not remotely close to the all knowing only bastion of LR and LRH as you imply It was being done 50+ years ago; the 338 Lapua was improved within one year of it appearing; which was 15 years before this site and changing the shoulder slightly and the name does not make it a new wonderous wildcat; the 375-408 was shot in competition 8 years ago before it was ever talked about here; now this might really shock you in that high end top quality LR guns were being built long before this site and even now by smiths off this site. So nothing new about here only.

This is not remotely the only place a high end LR gun can be found built by a smith with more than a few years experience in LRH and self taught ballistics. There are smiths off this board who have built and shot LR rifles for over 30 years and are routinley asked to test LR bullets by mftrs and asked to help design and test LR military rifles, chambers, barrels, groove and land configurations to include the one that made these shots. There are smiths out there paid $250K by Uncle Sam to buy more machinery for barrel making with pallets of high end barrels going to Bragg every year for custom sniper rifles and SR25s. But that is not talked about here, and that does not mean it does not happen too.

This is a good site and good people, but contrary to what some want to believe, the LRH world does not remotely revolve around only a few here. It is much bigger, and there is just as much expertise and more experience off here. Do not be naive and think this is the only place for info or even the best experts are only found here.

BH
 
bh I never said that this site was it and I know alot of rounds and guns have been out and made for a long time before this site but like any good smith they look to improve these rounds and guns if you think the military has the best out there you are wrong again my friend that is a sniper has a better long range hunting rifle then his sniper rifle which is a 338L infarct my edge shoots better groups at 1500yrds than his duty rifle and we have proved that and mind you this is with him shooting both rifles so just because it is from the military it's not always the best
 
Found this thread just a few minutes ago, and read all 6 pages.
Found it very informative and at times entertaining.
Kirby, thanks for posting your testing info.
BountyHunter, I enjoyed your posts the most, and would say you handily won the debate.
Have no dog in the fight, just enjoyed reading about ballistics at those distances.
Congrats to the sniper who made those shots.
 
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