30/338 Lapua

[Guest]

After reading the posts of DC and BH we have all learned:

1) Having an unlimited class would not "unlevel" the playing field. Everyone would still be playing by the same rules in that class. The rules would just not be so constraining.

2) We all know that if you haven't already built a championship winning 1000 yard gun, your chances of doing so are Slim and none. Not to mention Slim is probably shooting a high-power match somewhere in South America. What will they do when all the current record holding smiths pass away?

3) Any gun that will group under one inch at 600 yards, will absolutely shoot like crap at 1000 yards.

4) good groups and good shooting don't just count at Williamsport.

5) Guys that have never built a 1/10 MOA rifle sure know a lot about how to do it.
"OPRAH SAYS".......That whole parrot what you hear thing.....


Having shot well past 1000 yards for over a decade with many shooters, I can honestly say that I have seen guys like Malcolm Cooper and H.B. and even myself on a lucky day shoot sub world record groups. The problem with some guys is that if it doesn't happen at their facility (Williamsport) it probably didn't happen, or definitely does not count. There are probably 30 gunsmiths that I know of that are capable of building rifles that will shoot near the cg offset of the chosen pojectiles. Any one of these men are record class gunsmiths based on their enormous skill. The reality is only a small subset will hold records at any given time, simply because the gun they built was in the right hands, on the correct day, at a formal sanctioned competition. There is a lot of talent in this country, not just in machining but also in shooting. Some of this talent chooses to shoot in 1000 yard benchrest competitions, others choose to hunt or shoot recreationally, and some even choose other forms of competition(the nerve!). Their choices do not make them inferior shooters, simply different than the boys at Williamsport or any other 1000 yard facility.

I have even seen a handful of 1/4 MOA groups shot by the master, H.B., at 2,000 plus yards. Wish you could have been there!

Can I build rifles as good as the rifles setting world records in 1000 yard competition? Absolutely yes, along with about 30 other guys.

Will one of my rifles ever win a match at Williamsport?

Who cares! So many shooting events, so little time!


Wayne,

Pac Nor makes great barrels, and the action you have chosen is an excellent platform for a 30 Wolf. I would be happy to help you with your project, whether I do your machine work or not. You can e-mail me at [email protected]

 

[Darryl Cassel]

S1

Your 4 or 5 example explanations really don't apply or make sense at all especially #1 where you talk about an unlimited class not putting everyone on a level playing field.
When I said an unlimited class, that's what I meant---UNLIMITED wide open. I couldn't get it through. We have to many shooters as it is to add another class, was the answer I was given.
Where did you come up with the 600 yard 1" gun not shooting at 1000 yards? All that was ever mentioned was, it is a big difference shooting 10 shots at 1000 yards as compared to 3 or 5 shots at 600 yards and you of all people should know that.

BH and I are simply inviting you to come and shoot at one of the 1000 yard organized matches in the country. He represents the Virginia 1000 yd club (IBS) and I the Williamsport club.

You speak of shooting for many years and building guns of superior accuracy that will be capable of World Record accuracy and that's what we would like to see. Quite possibly you can do that? We don't know as we have never heard of, or have seen you put it on paper. That's not to say you can't.

We need more competitors such as yourself with that type of experiance to possibly give us more ideas in the shooting arena.

I truly like to Longrange hunt but, I also like the competition that 1000 yard match shooting affords my wife and I.
Possibly you don't approve of or like organized 1000 yard match shooting but, many of us do.

It would seem that you would have been into the 1000 yard Match shooting years ago with the interest you have in placing a bullet from point A to Point B as per your posts.

I can understand how busy you are and possibly have been over the years in the capacity you have held but, theres always time for a 1000 yard match or two along the way.

We are only inviting you to come to a match sometime and give it a try.

Were not saying you can or can't do something, just come and try it sometime.

There are many organized 1000 yard ranges in the country now and some that are not to far away from you.
It doesn't have to be Williamsport but, the invite is always open there from me.

So when you have time and want to try a 1000 yard match please come and give it a try and I know BH feels the same way.

DC

[ 03-05-2003: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]

 

[STL_Shooter]

Once again, trying to answer the thread originator's questions...

Wayne, yes, as S1 has indicated, he has built many rifles on actions other than Nesika. I've shot his Winchester-based Wolf, and it sure helped convince me that the Nesika Wolf would be a most excellent rifle. I've also seen an example of his "Mountain Wolf" design, based on a Winchester action, but with a lighter barrel taper for extended carry and use at higher altitudes.

Darryl and BountyHunter, let me be the first among this distinguished group of shooters to formally recognize you two as the toughest boys on the block. Why, you can't seem to let a post go by, no matter what the content or topic, without turning it into a personal challenge to a match at Williamsport, or at least a commercial for the the "Williamsport Way".

Please understand when some of us, not beholden to Williamsfart, choose only to yawn...

 

[BountyHunter]

Stl_shooter

Think you missed the point and intent of my post. It was not a challenge, it was an invitation! It was also pointing out the the differences between IBS and Williamsport in ref to S1's post that he is building winning guns and directly stating that he has no venue to prove it. Which is not true, he has the venue if he wishes to take advanatage of it and relatively close to him!

However, when you have the confidence and boldness to make statements like that; imply that you could prove it IF you had a venue that was legal for your guns; and always talking about how "you cross the lines that everyone has that limits them", then you and your defenders are a little naive and disengenous to everyone else to think that will go unnoticed if there is a legal venue. Don't you agree with that?

Williamsport has the most stringent rules on gun configuration, but IBS does not. His guns and others are legal in IBS while they may not be legal at Williamsport.

So IF he really wants to shoot, then he has the venues to do it and relatively close to him and to not do it is a personal decision, not that the opportunity is not there.

My explanation of the IBS format vs the Williamsport, was an invitation open to him and any other LR shooter that wants to try 1K BR but does not have a gun that meets PA standards. I hunt LR and shoot 1k BR for fun. Most other people that try it enjoy it also.

Personally, I am happy for anyone that can come into this game and shoot in the top 5 of a two day 3 agg match, particularily if they win overall for both LG and HG. They are truly on their game with guns and their skills, and my hat is off to them!!!!

The IBS Nationals are unique in the amount and quantity of prizes they give to shooters around $40K. If you have a winning gun and are capable of shooting it, then you can walk away with a new action and scope normally and more. We have drawings all day, each day and give away scopes and other goodies. Almost everyone wins something.

The IBS 1k BR Nationals are Labor day weekend and an open INVITATION to everyone to come shoot, enjoy the time, meet good shooters and learn and have fun most of all.

PS: I am not a member at Williamsport, never shot at Williamsport and do not advertise for them also so please do not make statements that I do, get your implications straight when you add my name to something.

BH

 

[Darryl Cassel]

STL

I don't recall mentioning your name in my last post.

I was honestly being nice and inviting S1 to "any" 1000 yard match in the country, not just Williamsport as you must have missed in the content.

There was nothing pertaining to you what so ever in that invite unless you would want to come along that is. With your "yawn" in the last sentence, I presume you wouldn't and that's fine. Anyone that doesn't know how to spell Williamsport need not apply.

When you speak of someone NOT letting a post go by, quite possibly you should look alittle closer to home and with those you are friends with?

BH and DC are not the "tough Guys" on the block as you mentioned.
I simply made an invite, if you or anyone else took it another way well, slap my hands with a ruler.

A noted 1000 yard gunsmith back this way always says, you can bust rocks and hit steel gongs all day long for fun but, if you want to see the true accuracy of your rifle, fire 5 and then 10 shots at a target at 1000 yards and go for a nice tight group. That is if, your rifle is made for that yardage or further. If it shoots nice tight round groups in the low single digits you have a keeper.

I guess what some of us are thinking and saying is, "show us". We enjoy excellent shooting and quite possibly a World Record could be broken in the process? Many of us could possibly learn from S1 and his shooting tecnique?

That's the reason for the invite.
If "nobody" on this entire forum is interested in doing or not doing that , so be it.
We would just "honestly" like to see S1 shoot his rifle. He sounds VERY experianced at what he does.

Hope that cleared some things up that you may not have gathered from the posts.

Later
DC

[ 03-05-2003: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]

 

[STL_Shooter]

Dude - you still don't get it. You just can't see it. You simply cannot comprehend it. It, it, it. It is just beyond your grasp. You are in denial.

I will type verry slowwwwly this time.

EVERY POST ON THIS BOARD IS NOT A PERSONAL INVITATION FOR YOU TO HIJACK, ADVERTISE, CAST ASPERSIONS, AND IN GENERAL, BULLY POSTERS WITH YOUR CHEST STUCK OUT.

THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD IS A QUESTION REGARDING LOADS FOR THE 30/338 LAPUA, WITH WHICH A FEW OF US HAVE REAL, LIVE, VALUABLE EXPERIENCE.

I DO NOT SEE WAYNE ASKING YOU FOR YOUR OPINION ON WHETHER YOU BELIEVE MY RIFLE WILL SHOOT GROUPS, ETC. I DO NOT SEE WAYNE ASKING WHETHER THE "WILLIAMSPORT WAY" ALLOWS FOR S1-DESIGNED RIFLES TO PLAY. AND ON AND ON.

PLEASE DO NOT TURN THESE THREADS INTO DOUBT CASTING SESSIONS ON RIFLES, METHODS, OR WHATEVER.

Unless, of course, Len's intention for this board was for it to be your personal stomping ground, where other ideas, methods and technologies must take a back seat to whatever you are promoting at the moment.

Oh, and by the way, by your own rules - you are disqualified. Note the spelling of your club name in the first sentence.

"I was honestly being nice and inviting S1 to "any" 1000 yard match in the country, not just Williasport as you must have missed in the content.....Anyone that doesn't know how to spell Williamsport need not apply."

I'm tired of this. I'm finished...

 

[Darryl Cassel]

Dude????
STL

I at least can and do go back and correct an "honest" mistake through fast typing when it happens most of the time.

Unlike what you purposely typed as a derogatory remark to "me" in "your" post concerning Williamsport.
Lets see, did I spell it correctly?? Yes I did.

If the original content of the post swayed away a bit, it was with sincere invite of S1 and his shooting ability and some of his equipment and for "NO" other reason. BH mentioned the SAME thing.

Your the one that gave remarks not relavent to a post that you were not even mentioned in to us (BH and Me).

So if you want to truly blame someone for this, look in the mirror "Dude"

I was trying to be nice which I mentioned in my last post to you. I even attached a smiley face for you to smile with.

I think we are all getting cabin fevor with this long winter especially back east with all the snow we have had.

Heres another smiley for you STL, enjoy.
Later
DC

[ 03-05-2003: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]

 

[BountyHunter]

Stl-shooter

"I have built many rifles capable of shooting world record groups at 1000 yards. ... they do not shoot in competitions, nor are they legal at Williamsport or any other thousand yards benchrest range(WRONG). These rifles shoot off bi pods that are not legal, using superior brakes that are not legal(WRONG), using superior barrel tapers that are not legal(WRONG). It is unfortunate that so many of the classes at 1000 yard ranges are so constrained." (WRONG)

I DO NOT SEE WAYNE ASKING YOU FOR YOUR OPINION ON WHETHER YOU BELIEVE MY RIFLE WILL SHOOT GROUPS, ETC. I DO NOT SEE WAYNE ASKING WHETHER THE "WILLIAMSPORT WAY" ALLOWS FOR S1-DESIGNED RIFLES TO PLAY. AND ON AND ON.

Hmmm, think based on the above post, someone else started the tirade about 1000 yard shooting didn't they and made some extremely strong claims and inaccurate statements?

Or is your high horse only reserved for everyone else?

Look, my intention was simply to point out S1's knowlege 1K BR organizatons and classes is not totally accurate, and offer an invititation to showcase his wares, if S1 was honest about a venue to show what his guns can do, as IBS will allow his guns.

I do not intend to get in P---ing contest with you over this. Take it for what it is worth, if he wants to really shoot his guns in 1k BR, he is more than welcome and anyone else with his guns. I for one am very interested in seeing his brake, sounds interesting and want to see it shoot.

However, you need to be a just a little fair about this. If he wants to make those kind of claims, it is extremely naive not to expect everyone to want to see that kind of shooting. Nothing personal here, just the potential for great world record shooting according to the talk. However, everyone wants to see the "walk". "You do not go saying I have the fastest car in the world, but on other hand say, I really do not want to race it after someone has told you that you can race on their track." Just straight old fashioned common sense, if you want to make the claims, people want to see it!! I'll be the first to say "He's da man" if he breaks a world record or even wins one class, much less overall LG and HG Champ at the Nationals.

We did not make the claims here!

If he has got a better mousetrap/gun, muzzle brake, flash hole reamer, great for him and I will buy it(which I have done) and try to incorporate what I can learn from him. We all are learning every match and everytime we shoot, gunsmiths are always coming up with better things. I am sure he has some to offer too. Just want to see them work.

Let's be real here, world record guns are not made and sold based on talk on the internet, but on their ability on a range!

No need to reply, just understand, nothing personal, no personal challenge, but I would love to see any gun & shooter that good shoot if they have an honest desire to show their stuff. If not, well I think we all understand. But truthfully, how many people honestly get to say they witnessed a world record being shot. I would love to see it!

BH

[ 03-05-2003: Message edited by: BountyHunter ]

 

[STL_Shooter]

Dude#2,

If you cannot simply admit that a post regarding load data for a 30/338 Lapua was hijacked by a few folks east of the Mississippi, you too are in denial.

There is little hope when a guy asks for load data for a 30/338 Lapua and in its place gets unrelated earfuls from folks who don't own a 30/338 Lapua, from folks who don't make a 30/338 Lapua, and probably most telling of all, from folks whose pocketbooks and philosophical positions just don't benefit from a 30/338 Lapua.

 

[Darryl Cassel]

STL

If you were refering to me in that Dude #2 message.

For your information, I asked S1 about the specs of the 30/338 IMP Wolf just a day or two ago because I was truly interested.

Something else you can take to the bank. My pocket book is full enough to have about anything I care to buy that is available to the LR shooter. Trust me on that.

You said you were "finished" a post or two ago.
How about we "BOTH" do just that? Fair enough?

I don't think the rest of the Forum needs to hear the digs toward each other or anyone else.

If you have something to say to me, my email is [email protected] or you may call anytime at 814-546-2674. My butler may answer the phone and if so, just ask for me.

Later
DC

[ 03-05-2003: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]

 

[BountyHunter]

s1

You are right, as I stated I am not a gunsmith and do not own a 30/338 Lapua. I readily admit to that. I do not pretend to be things I am not.

Never stated I owned, held or shot any of your guns, so I am not sure what Dudey Boys comment about "my pocket book and philosophical position" has to do with me holding your guns. But do not bother trying to explain. As you know Stl, I will take your word about him voting for Eisenhower, as I did not.


You on the other hand, claim to build "world record group 1k BR guns" but in reality have never built a proven 1k gun either (shot by anyone) and have never even shot in 1k as evidenced by your inaccurate statements on what the rules will allow and not allow as far as basic rules on guns form the PA, IBS and NBRSA formats. And once again, they are IBS legal so the venue is there.

Guns are proven in battle, not on the internet or with a slide rule, and in the 1k game that battle is on the 1k range. Yes, I and everyone else also, are skeptical when you say again the audacious statement "I have seen many shooters shoot sub the world record groups with my rifles and with other people's rifles", As the IBS LG record is 1.564" for 5 shots and HG is 3.474" for 10 shots that is some strong shooting. With that many shooters shooting your guns with groups better than those, you would think that it would be easy to find one kind soul to shoot one of your guns in a 1k match. How about Stl or is he busy on the weekends too?

Therefore according to your rules, I will gladly refrain from talking about the 30/338 Lapua (which I did not anyway)until I own one and you agree to refrain from talking about building world record 1k br guns and 1k BR rules, until you build one that has "walked the talk" and learn the technical specification/rules that any competent 1k gunsmith knows!

Agreed?

However if your guns shoot as good as you claim, would love to see them shoot by anyone. Nothing disrespectful here, but all of us have heard countless claims to the wonder bullet, bore cleaner, cartridge etc and learned to be skeptical until we see it proven by you or any other shooter you desire.

You say you are famous for stepping over lines other people have drawn, well in this case you drew the line and "All you got to do is step right over that little line you personally have drawn in reference to your guns being able to show their stuff and have someone else pull the trigger".

BH

Last post!!

 

[Darryl Cassel]

S1

I retract my invitation to you to come and shoot at the Williamsport club----Opps, I mentioned a club I have been shooting at since 1987 and have only missed 2 matches in that length of time. I am not a World record holder and wanted you to show how you shoot so well as you mentioned you/your rifles do.

You would be surprised at the amount of shooters who want information on any forum who would like to to come to PA and other 1000 yard clubs and compete.
If you find that hard to believe, to bad. Maybe this is why I mention it. Sort of a promotional thing for the club or any organized 1000 yard range.

I made the invite to you in "Good" faith and wanted to see you shoot and try to break one of the records at clubs around the Country. This was especially true after your several comments on how good a gunsmith you are and the Record guns you have built.
we like to see a good gunsmith shoot who builds his own rifles.

Your correct, several smiths can't do that. If you can, that's fantastic.

I'm truly sorry you did not take some of the things I said the way they were meant.

I hope your gunsmith years are many and that you continue on the tactical shooting and incorporate that into your rifle systems.

Truthfully, I would like to see your facility someday.

I will always talk about the spotter shot method of LR hunting just as you do for Holdover with your R2 just to give shooters another option.
Your way is not the best way for everyone as mine may not be either.
At least an option can be given.

So, with that being said, I will close and hope this thread dies a well deserved death.

Later and good shooting to all.

DC

[ 03-05-2003: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]

 

[STL_Shooter]

Darryl, this thread does not deserve to die a well deserved death. That is your fundamental misunderstanding. This thread represents a simple request for information on 30/338 Lapua loads, and as such, has great merit.

However, Wayne, you can probably see that this forum has been rendered useless for the purpose you require - gathering information about the 30/338 Lapua.

As such, Wayne, if you would like more information on loads for the 30/338 Lapua, you will have much better luck, with much less noise, by emailing me at [email protected].

 

[Boyd Heaton]