30/338 Lapua

[Darryl Cassel]

STL

Was wondering about the 3/8MOA groups.
How far was that and how many shots?

Being that 1 MOA at 1000 yards is 10", If you hold that 3/8 MOA with 10 shots and at 1000 yards, you have a World Record rifle there.
Even with 5 shots at that distance (1000 yards), you would be doing great.

That's exactly how the Williamsport range had it's beginnings. A large group of Longrange hunters had been arguing how accurate their rifles were and how far they were killing deer in the northern part of PA.
Five guys got together and formed the club and said, well, if you think your rifles are so accurate, lets form a 1000 yard club and put it on paper at 1000 yards and shoot 10 shots. THe first match in 1967 over 80 shooters showed up.

Anyway you have a fine shooting rifle if it will hold anywhere near 3/8MOA at 1000 yards and with 5 or 10 shots.

Later
DC
as an add on here, most of the LR shooters in this area judge every rifle on how well it does at 1000 yards.
We have seen some that shoot terrific at 100 yards and not worth a darn at 1000 yards and "vise versa."
The lighter 30 cal bullets normally don't do very well in the 1000 yard competitions at Williamsport either. Maybe thats why the demand is not very good for the 178 gr you mentioned?

[ 03-03-2003: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]

 

[Brent]

DC,

Trust me, the velocities I post are true and accurate or I wouldn't post them.
Respectfully, I wonder if you took what I said the wrong way, not sure though.
If I had meant to say you were full of ****, I would have said just that, I did not.

What I more correctly meant to say was this; I thought you attained those velocities with max load data for the cartridges mentioned or just over that concerning their improved versions. I was thinking of an apples to apples comparison, there lies the confusion.

Perplexed? Not any more.

You clarified things well in your posts.

I have loaded my 338wm up with 250gr X bullets over 73gr of H4350 or 70gr of 4831 with no visible or felt pressure signs and got 3050 fps on average. This was way over the book velocity and pressure was likely very high, but nonetheless attainable using Federal HE brass, although I don't recommend using the load now, I have traveled the road… I decided to get the 416wby and play it safer to get the same performance at less pressure.

I was loading for my 416wby when I first got it and found the same as you, the book said 108gr of RL22 would produce 2700 fps with a 400gr X bullet. Well, I carefully went to 120gr before I was at 2700 fps, which was the widest spread I'd ever seen too. I stopped there and worked back down until I had good accuracy with one grain less. So I have seen exactly what you said first hand as well.

During the last year, I have worked up a lot of loads in 9 different rifles while testing pressure with the Oehler 43 this last year, and have come to learn that bolt lift, primer condition, etc, etc is most often not observed until 75,000 psi and only sometimes at just above 70k psi.

Velocity however, this runs hand in hand with psi in every test, and often is very linier as well. This is a good thing for all that use chronographs while working up loads. Most loads take as much as 5-7gr to go from 65k psi to 75k and some take 3-5, while I've seen a few that did it in less than 2 grains. One just never knows how much to back down after observing obvious psi signs.

Velocity doesn't come free, it is at the expense of psi in every case I've tested. If there is one thing I have learned and would take away from the experience of using the Oehler 43 it would be that psi is far better observed by watching velocity using book loads while considering barrel length and not the classic indicators, although one should not ignore them if they show up first. All my data suggests that once you observe the classic signs, you are "way" over what one would normally want to subject his rifle to repeatedly, which leads me to another point.

Just so everyone knows, weather you use a commercial or custom action, makes no difference which, this or the barrel will fail if subjected to repeated "proof" class loads in a predictable number of cycles, this is fact and not speculation. You assume the risk, the guy at the bench next to you hopes you have not taken to big of one.

Wayne,

I know there is a few more guys here that have load data for the 30/338 Lapua or the improved version and I know that's what you're really wanting here, hope they post for you too. Sorry this thread got off track so **** quick, that always bites.

If anyone else has loads and velocities, I could use the data too.

Please post all of them that you have, I work up slowly so if it's a max load just state it, no problem.

Thanks.

 

[Darryl Cassel]

STL

Thanks for the information concerning the 5 shot groups at 600 yards with the 30/338 Lapua IMP..

I was wondering about the distance you had mentioned your 3/8 MOA as it "did" apply to the overall content and capability of "your" rifle or you would not have mentioned it..
Keep up the good testing and shooting.
Frankly, I was interested in what the cartridge was doing and how accurate it was, especiially if you shot it at 1000 yards which you explained was not the case.
Some of our shooters at Williamsport are using the 338 Lapua case necked to 30 and improved.
*****************************************

Brent

I too, will let you know if I think your full of **** if that's what I'm thinking at the time. I tell it like it is too. I prefer to do that face to face though when possible.

That was not the case in the comment about what I posted as velocity and what I have found in testing and shooting and your question concerning it. Again I say, I won't post something that is not true, regardless of the circumstance. If I have found something that is true and interesting to LR shooting, I will mention it to help anyone.

Thanks for the information on your findings concerning some loads listed in loading books which "WE" will both say are, "full of ****" in some of their listed cartridge publications.

Keep testing.
DC

 

[Brent]

Thanks Darryl,

I just wanted to be clear that I knew both your velocities were truly attainable, and that they were never in question.

On loading manuals, the worst offender in my oppinion is the Barnes book. I use a collaboration of at least three when starting on new ground so it's less of an issue.

I enjoy your posts, experience and expertise here, as always, take care,

 

[Darryl Cassel]

Thanks Brent

your learning fast and going about in the right way.

Later and good shooing to you.

DC

 

[Guest]

Below is some 30 Wolf data:

178 AMAX- RL-25 94.0 gr. V= 3,420 fps.
Retumbo 96.5 gr.
50-bmg 106 gr.
AA-8700 108 gr.


190 JLK RL-25 92 gr. V=3,340 fps.
Retumbo 94 gr.
50 Bmg 104 gr.



210 JLK RL-25 88 gr.
50 Bmg. 101 gr. V= 3,240 fps.



253 PRL 50 BMG. 99.5 gr. V= 3,120 fps



I have listed the velocity next to the load that was the most accurate in my 30 inch Lilja 3 groove barrel. It has been my experience that someone willing to purchase a custom action would be wise to choose a cartridge based on the Lapua case. The inherent accuracy and durability of the brass, is significantly different when shooting near maximum pressure. The brass preparation will consume some time, why not get twice as many firings from the same piece of brass. The superior accuracy is icing on the cake.

I have built many rifles capable of shooting world record groups at 1000 yards. However, they are in fact not world record rifles, they do not shoot in competitions, nor are they legal at Williamsport or any other thousand yards benchrest range. These rifles shoot off bi pods that are not legal, using superior brakes that are not legal, using superior barrel tapers that are not legal. It is unfortunate that so many of the classes at 1000 yard ranges are so constrained. This mentality slows technical progress, and discourages the exploration of new ideas. In other sports, there are experimental formula classes, or true unlimited classes, so that new ideas can be tested in competition and proven or disproven. I will continue to build new technology into rifles for people who love to shoot at long-range and don't need a plaque or a certified world record to enjoy this rewarding sport.

[ 03-03-2003: Message edited by: S1 ]

 

[Darryl Cassel]

S1

What are the diminsions of the Wolfe case being it is an Improved 338 Lapua necked to 30, I believe.

What is the case capacity as per water weight?

I know the Lapua case is shorter then the 300 RUM case but it (Lapua) is bigger in diameter.

Do you have the specs on it and did you create it? What shoulder angle?
The reason I'm asking is, some are using an improved 30 based on the 338 Lapua at Williamsport.

Later
DC

 

[Guest]

DC
35 degrees

118 to 121 gr. water capacity depending on lot of brass.

Yes, I created and tested 9 versions of 30/378, and 30/338 Lapua variants, and the Wolf is the superior configuration.

 

[STL_Shooter]

Texas, I think I asked for an AMax between 210 and 220. Steve said there's no demand, so he doesn't place it at high priority. We did not discuss a particular threshold for him to make them.

Darryl, note that this thread was not meant to discuss the merits of my (most excellent) rifle, or of any particular bullet's merit for 1000 yard benchrest shooting. Rather, Wayne asked about a cartridge which I have particular knowledge - the 30/338 Lapua. But I digress...

1) the St. Louis Benchrest club has a maximum range of 600 yards. Those (4) 3/8 MOA 5-shot groups were shot at 600 yards.

2) thanks for the history lesson on your club - although inappropriate in this particular message thread - it was...umm, educational.

3) yes, I do have a fine shooting rifle and yes, I am doing "great" compared to where I was a year ago.

 

[texas]

S1,if its not too much to ask what type of barrel taper are you using?

 

[Guest]

It depends on the length, but we almost always put eight flutes in the barrel. On a Lilja barrel the fluting has no impact on accuracy.

 

[Guest]

I want to thank everone for their posts. Keep them coming! Thank you Brent for all your help, Darryl too.
S1,
Would you consider putting together a rifle with an action other than a Nesika and a Lilja barrel. I am going to use a Geske action and a Pac-Nor barrel and am interestd in your 30 Wolf.
Thanks again,
Wayne

[ 03-04-2003: Message edited by: Wayne McD ]

 

[BountyHunter]

S1

"I have built many rifles capable of shooting world record groups at 1000 yards. However, they are in fact not world record rifles, they do not shoot in competitions, nor are they legal at Williamsport or any other thousand yards benchrest range. These rifles shoot off bi pods that are not legal, using superior brakes that are not legal, using superior barrel tapers that are not legal. It is unfortunate that so many of the classes at 1000 yard ranges are so constrained."

You need to research some more before making broad characterizations of 1k shooting like that.

It is true that PA (Williamsport) has some stringent rules on tapers for LG(only)etc which can effect which type of muzzle brake you use. Anyone gun that will shoot off a bipod, will also shoot on a rest also. However, IBS 1000 yard does not have those rules. You can use any taper barrel, any muzzle brake (except clamshell, just make the 17 lb limit for LG (5 shots) and anything over 17 lb is HG (10 shots). (Checking on legality of bipods now, just never had anyone want to use them). Iowa and Ohio both have a full 10 match IBS 1K schedule this year starting in April. One is 4 hours from you and the other about 6-8 hrs. Tom Sarver (Yogishooter) runs the Ohio club, is on this site and BR Central, so easy to get in touch with. Some of us in VA are going to shoot in his matches this year a lot to help them get started.

The IBS National championships are in VA this year on Labor day weekend, which is 14 hours from your. I know, have driven in more times than I care to think about (originally from MO about 100 miles from you). About $35-40K in prizes will be given away also. The top LG, HG and Overall champ walked away with over $2k of prizes EACH last year, they choose out of the pile, (action and scope normally). BAT, Neseika, and Viper actions, NF scopes, Leupolds, barrels by all makers etc. Everyone won some type of prize to include NF scopes down to cans of powder.

This is a 3 agg match for each class over two days so true best shot wins. Luck goes out the window with 3 aggs normally. However you will be shooting against about 150-200 of the best 1k shooters worldwide. You have to be on your game, and shoot better than (probably to win) 3 sub 4" groups (5 shots) for LG and 3 sub 5" groups (10 shots). As for breaking the IBS 1K records for groups, it is 1.564" 5 shots for LG and 3.472" for HG (10 shots). You and your guns better be smokin, but wish you the best of luck to do it!

So if you truly are building winning guns, you do have the venues available to prove it IF you want to. Imagine it would be a big boon for business.

Remember, the only "line in the sand" preventing you, is "self inflicted" in this case.

It truly is going to be a fun match, we are working deals on hotels for cut rates now also. Info will be up on www.virgina1000.com later in year for registration etc. Registration costs for practice day on Friday and 2 match days will be under $100 which will include 2 meal tickets. Bring all your buddies, shoot to win, but have fun and walk away with the goodies!

Good luck

BH

 

[Darryl Cassel]

S1

That was a VERY broad statement you made about building World Record 1000 yard rifles when you or your rifles have not competed in matches at 1000 yard clubs that I am familar with and that I am aware of.
The proof is in doing it don't you think?

I'm all for an "unlimited class" for guys like you and then, anything goes.
Your rifles would then be legal to shoot.

As it is, everyone is on the same level playing field and work within the rule structure to get the best accuracy capable from their rifles and the 1000 yard shooting members are doing just that..

I think a "10 shot" 1000 yard group World Record of 3.151" at 1022 yards is real good. Do you think you could build a rifle capable of that accuracy and then doing it?
How about a 10 shot record of 4.500" with a 16 1/2 LB light gun with a strict rule structure?
Could you build one to do That and stay within the rules to do it?
If you can, bring them to Williamsport or any other 1000 range and compete with us. We would like to have you.

Every sport has rules to abide by and all competitors work within that structure to compete. Rifle classes at Williamsport were made to do just that. Even car races have strict rules to abide by and they seem to break records every year for speed.

Maybe someday an unlimited class for you guys. I tried to get one two years ago but, it didn't fly.

Just build one that shoots good, stays within our rule structure and come shoot with us. That shouldn't be so hard to do.

Later
DC

[ 03-04-2003: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]