.257 Wby --> .25-06 AI

[Trickymissfit]

I also hear that a 308 will group better than a 300WM, I shoot both & I am not too sure the 300WM does so bad compared to a 308, esp. after 800 yds. After Kirby worked over my Sendero
25-06AI, .25-.40 MOA groups were common with the 125 Wildcat, 100 & 115BT. Would the Bob give me .15-.30 MOA instead, who knows, but I have seen that a broad range of rounds will produce very small groups with a good barrel, good loads & a good shooter, so much so that it gets hard to tell which cartridge groups better. I am merely guessing, but if Buffalobob took
an Antelope at a 1000yds with his 257 Wea, it likely groups OK. So, it might be inherently accurate.

I don't know where a guy named Bob Hutton comes into this, but I saw where backwoods83 stated he got 3800 with the 100 in a 257 Wea.
, that seems a little fast, but I don't know the particulars of his rifle.

"Ackley upfront says 3400 maybe, but 3300 is more realistic." Did Mr. Ackley have access to RL 22, 25, Retumbo, Magnum powder, etc. ? Again, it seems strange to talk about what Ackley could get out of a given round before these slower propellants were invented. I do know that tons of 257 wea. rifles with 26" tubes get 3600 & change with a 100 gr. easily, some will beat that a little. I load for two 26" std. 25-06's & 3350-3400 is no trick with RL25 & one likes the 115BT at 3200. With the 25-06AI I can get 3475-3500 with the 100, 3300 with 115 & 3200 with 125 Wildcat. But then again, my powders & primers are not Woodstock era either.

If you know anything about RCBS or the old Guns & Ammo magazine, then you'll know who Bob Hutten was. He did a lot of wildcat rounds that later became standard rounds (6mm Remington and the Rockchucker series). The guy was pretty sharp, and probably developed more wildcats than anybody except for Ackley.

Powder burn rates are all it is in the end. All IMR powder is of the same exact composition no matter what the number on the can. The difference is in the size of the granul. Hogdons uses a lot of different formulas in their stuff, but if you really look at the burn rates verses what is gain; there's not a lot of new stuff under the sun. Just some things that fit in between this and that.
gary

 

[436]

Nomosendero

I don't know where a guy named Bob Hutton comes into this, but I saw where backwoods83 stated he got 3800 with the 100 in a 257 Wea.
, that seems a little fast, but I don't know the particulars of his rifle.

Me? I'm a big .257 Wby Mag fan... and I like the 100gr bullet for darn near everything.
As for the Bob's comment; or if it can really do 3800 fps; the answer is yes. If you have a good barrel 26" plus, 28" works best'…, you can achieve that velocity in a .257 Wby Mag.
If you look into the Barnes reloading manual number #3 page 176 you'll see a load for the .257 Wby using a 100gr XLC BT with RL25 powder at an advertised velocity of 3756 fps. In most of my .257 Wby's it's a was very consistent book load; in fact most of the 26" rifle will reach 3800 fps mark with just a little help, the 28" barrel rifles have no problem at all reaching it. {One quick note} In my .224 Wby Mag I use the Barnes 50gr VLC, vel's are out standing and accuracy is near match quality.
I know the wildcat's are fun... and there not much the .25-06 can't do in the field'.., but'…, if I'm going to shoot a .25 cal rifle, It's going to be a .257 Roberts Ackley Improved; that's where PO made his bones in the .25's or the .257 Wby Mag… Roy knew what he was doing.
Good luck
436

 

[backwoods83]

Since you speak of powders back in the 40s surplus Imr 4350 was about it so what do you think roy weatherby was loading the 257 270 and 300 with, and why do you think the 257 and 270 cases were shortened to 2.55 instead of remaining the lenght of the 300?

 

[Nomosendero]

If you know anything about RCBS or the old Guns & Ammo magazine, then you'll know who Bob Hutten was. He did a lot of wildcat rounds that later became standard rounds (6mm Remington and the Rockchucker series). The guy was pretty sharp, and probably developed more wildcats than anybody except for Ackley.

Powder burn rates are all it is in the end. All IMR powder is of the same exact composition no matter what the number on the can. The difference is in the size of the granul. Hogdons uses a lot of different formulas in their stuff, but if you really look at the burn rates verses what is gain; there's not a lot of new stuff under the sun. Just some things that fit in between this and that.
gary

I corresponded with Kirby at length before the decision was made to go with the 25-06AI, but I must admit we were looking at current data, not Korean War components. Maybe you should
e-mail him and tell him there is no gain before he does another one, wow!!!

Look, if you want to believe that the Roberts improved is the ticket I have no issue with that. What I don't want is someone to attempt to pee down my back & tell me its raining. I remember Bob Hutton & why I asked how he fits into this is simple, he doesn't. Again a product of the old days/Ackley era. You say the new powders don't gain you much, which for the 25-06AI is a crock. By your reasoning & 60's mentality a 300RUM would be in a dead heat with the 300WM, when in reality the new powders are what separates the RUM, 7STW, 338 Edge and others from lessor rounds.
And what you said before about mag length is also a crock if you know what mag to use. As stated, I use a Rem Sendero, which has a Mag length action as the std. long action. I can seat the VLD as long as the bullet will allow.

You say that the AI could only get 3350, well the Nosler Manual shows 3361 for a std. 25-06 with a 24" tube, I am running a 26" AI with a suitable length long throat in a mag length Mod. 700 action. The vel. I am getting are quite easy to obtain with the new powders you say don't matter. In fact, I found in 3 current manuale the vel. running from 3300 to 3400 with the std. case. To think with todays powders there would be no gain at all going to the AI case but a large gain going to the Wea. is simply not logical.

Efficiency is one matter & would be worthy of discussion if I cared, but with available propellants, case capacity wins in velocity. The rest is a matter of how much you want & other pros & cons.

Let's just agree to disagree here.

 

[Nomosendero]

Yeah I tried many powders in 257 wby 7828ssc retumbo H1000 4831 but reloder 25 gives the best consistency and velocity, 7828 will out run it but accuracy flat out sucks, I even use reloder 25 in standard 25-06 with heavy bullets 115-120grn. Reloder 22 works better in the slightly larger bore 270 wby and 4831 isn't bad but a little erratic. Well whether it be a 264 win mag or necked up 257 wby or 6.5x300 wby I'm sure you will be pleased, 264s are awesome my 6.5x284 is probably my favorite rifle to shoot!

Yea, but if you go by what one is saying here, RL25 would not do that for you!

Yes, it sure works for me.

 

[Nomosendero]

Since you speak of powders back in the 40s surplus Imr 4350 was about it so what do you think roy weatherby was loading the 257 270 and 300 with, and why do you think the 257 and 270 cases were shortened to 2.55 instead of remaining the lenght of the 300?

And if you go with a 257 Wea. with a 28" 1-8 for the heavies, would any of the powders used be the same as those used when the Roberts was a popular round?

 

[backwoods83]

No need for a @$#% measuring contest, same bullet, same case pressure, more powder, more speed end of story. If improving something didn't improve it, well I guess they wouldn't call it that then! Maybe I should get a 250 savage improved barrel and claim it'll out run the 06

 

[Nomosendero]

No need for a @$#% measuring contest, same bullet, same case pressure, more powder, more speed end of story. If improving something didn't improve it, well I guess they wouldn't call it that then! Maybe I should get a 250 savage improved barrel and claim it'll out run the 06

That is a good way (& patient way) of saying it.

 

[gr8whyt]

This is all fun, guys. When I said I had decided against the Wby Mag and for the AI, I was just saying I'm tired of the magnums...they're just no fun for me right now. I get a lot of fun from the fireforming, reloading, and shooting. And the 100 fps isn't going to mean much to the deer hit just behind the shoulder. And a little less recoil is nice too. Maybe even a little nostalgia for old PO Ackley. I know, old Roy Weatherby is nostalgic too.

Nomo, I agree with you that efficiency comes into play here. It's a little like the old saying (in the automotive world), there's no substitute for cubic inches. That's right, but I don't need a tractor-trailer truck, or even the biggest hemi 'cuda. Something fun and efficient. So I figured what-the-hay, lets give the AI a turn.

-- gr8whyt

 

[41mag]

gr8whyt,

I won't argue with you about any of it. I built the AI version and am VERY happy with it. I had the standard version for close to a decade before giving it to my daughter.

I have quite a bit of 30-06 brass on hand from years of collecting once fired and also mil surp from my pop. When I looked at anything new for the safe I usually based it off this case so I was sure to have plenty to play around with.

I ran my standard version at 3350 for the 100gr load and 3150 for the 115's, which gave me all the power and reach I needed. With the AI version and the 28" Broughton barrel I am easily getting 3350 only with the 120gr loads. When I worked up to top end I managed a bit more before starting to iron out the primers in the Lapua cases.

For this rig I went with the Lapua and Winchester cases exclusively. Between the two I really have found no difference in either accuracy or what my top end loads were. So far I haven't gotten enough loads through the initial 50 cases of each to determine which will last longer. In my 10 cases of each I used for work ups, I managed to get close to 4 loads from each at the top end before the primers loosened up.

For powders, I found that mine like Ramshot Magnum the best. I use standard Win WLR primers and after giving a few a try not seen the need for anything magnum. While they aren't available anymore, the Nosler 120gr Solid Base has shot the best for me, with some Remington 120gr CL's coming in right there close. As has been mentioned the Wildcat 130's are also wonderful but if you don't have any your going to have to wait until they are made hopefully this summer.

Bottom line is build what you want, and enjoy it. If we all had the same things what fun would that be. Just because of this that or the other about something makes one better for someone else don't make it great for me. Besides that long sharp shouldered case with a 115gr Berger sticking out of it really looks cool.

Here are a couple of pics of mine, heck I'm proud of it.

I dropped this little bugger at 275yd, using the 125gr Wildcat with a shot just behind his onside ear.

This one was only about 100yds or so with the 120gr CL at a MV of just over 3350. I figured it was going to be similar to the BT at that velocity, but was happily surprised at the result,

Good luck with yours, I doubt you will be disappointed.

 

[Trickymissfit]

No need for a @$#% measuring contest, same bullet, same case pressure, more powder, more speed end of story. If improving something didn't improve it, well I guess they wouldn't call it that then! Maybe I should get a 250 savage improved barrel and claim it'll out run the 06

just because you improve a cartridge dosn't mean you going after more velocity. Ackley simply says the 06 case was improved for better case life. And gains have been shown to be very minimal thru the years
gary

 

[backwoods83]

So since you mean by improved case life I guess that means you do not mind removing the donut rings on the inside of the case neck that normally appears with a 40* shoulder, Improved, I call it a pain in the ***, but however you see it!

 

[Trickymissfit]

So since you mean by improved case life I guess that means you do not mind removing the donut rings on the inside of the case neck that normally appears with a 40* shoulder, Improved, I call it a pain in the ***, but however you see it!

funny, I see the dreaded doughnut on virtually all sharp shouldered cases after awhile. It's the nature of the beast. But I really don't notice it forming any sooner with a 40 degree shoulder than I do with a 25 degree shoulder, and I do shoot a lot of 40 degree shoulders. Perhaps it's time to a look at your dies?
gary

 

[backwoods83]

I happen to recall a fellow fire forming ackley 260 brass, lapua cases, using bullseye and cream of wheat, the funny thing about it is he had to remove those donuts befor loading, just after blowing breakfast out his barrel, funny I never see them on my 6.5x284 35* 7mm mag 25* 22-250 28* 250 savage 26*, well I think you get the point wiseass, yes with ackleys lack of body taper is easier to size cases but its not easier on the shoulders, my dies are just fine, and if your worried about case life maybe you should use some bushing neck sizers and leave the rest of the case alone!