elkaholic
Well-Known Member
It sure sounds like an out of whack chamber to me, from what you describe. Good luck and keep us posted....Rich
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25-06 case head seperation?
- Thread starter 243yote
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It sure sounds like an out of whack chamber to me, from what you describe. Good luck and keep us posted....Rich
Moman
Well-Known Member
I have an H&R Ultra hunter and have reloaded brass and full length resized about 5-6 times and then this happened.Next reload on my 25-06 , starting at min recommeneded start load with new powder and working up to max load. I did not get to recommeneded max load and this happened. Crack appeared on the 1st rnd but I did not noticed until one case extracted and then came apart after hitting the ground. Noticed after about 4 rnds the cases had a crack around the case head. The 5th had almost completely cracked but extracted from chamber. The 6th rnd completely seperated and case got stuck. Did a terrible job of removing case ? Over worked brass? Left a couple of scratches from removing brass,would that scew up the chamber demensions? Have not shot the rifle since then. Just wondering because reloading manual says to full length size cases everytime for break open actions or cases will not extract and that is true. Tried that on my .223 H&R and cases do not extract if not full length resized. Safe to shoot gun or get new barrel for gun?Any insight woulld be helpful?
Yote, I'm trying really hard to understand your problem, but you're kind of jumpin around a bit. Your original post said you got 5 or 6 reloads on your brass before they split. They split due to overworking the brass. Now you're saying that they're crooked or something, that sounds like a new problem. It may in fact be due to some sanding you did to your chamber.
Your first post yesterday said you compared once fired brass and reloaded stuff side by side and that the reloaded stuff was leaning away from the once fired stuff. That sounds more like a reloading problem.
Anyway, it sounds like you were only getting 5 or 6 reloads and wanted to improve on that, but you got a case stuck, scratched the chamber, sanded the chamber, can now see a low spot in the chamber, reloads lean away from fired brass. You have to look at this objectively to determine if this is really an H&R issue. I don't want to be rude about this, and I may in fact be missing some point here, but look at this objectively.
I was getting blown primers on a stock savage 25-06, with factory ammo. Also on light handloads.. It got to the point it would jam the bolt closed, stuck case and all - had to hammer it open. I could only guess the exact cause but knew for sure it wasn't hot loads, which is what Savage kept telling me. So, I gave up and did a rebarrel – I couldn't be happier. For a mass produced rifle of such tolerances, it doesn't take much. Hope you get it resolved.
This thread's got some interesting and sometimes dangerous practices posted. Here's a dangerous one:
Turning a die 1/4th turn changes its height about 18 thousandths. Die threads at 14 per inch have a bit over 71 thousandths between threads. Adjusting a die 1/4th turn at a time will easily get a full length sized case shoulder set back far enough to guarantee head separation really quick with rimless bottleneck cases. Don't change the die height more than 4 thousandths or 1/16th of a turn when searching for the right case headspace to safely and properly fit your chamber. There shouldn't be more than 5 thousandths headspace clearance on a loaded round.
Get a case headspace gage, such as an RCBS Precision Mic or Hornady gage. They'll measure your case headspace from head to shoulder so you can tell when your die's set to set fired case shoulders back no more than 2 thousandths. Best safety, accuracy and case life happens when this is done.
Doing this usually ends up with a case way too short for safety and a guarantee that head separation is just around the corner.
Turning a die 1/4th turn changes its height about 18 thousandths. Die threads at 14 per inch have a bit over 71 thousandths between threads. Adjusting a die 1/4th turn at a time will easily get a full length sized case shoulder set back far enough to guarantee head separation really quick with rimless bottleneck cases. Don't change the die height more than 4 thousandths or 1/16th of a turn when searching for the right case headspace to safely and properly fit your chamber. There shouldn't be more than 5 thousandths headspace clearance on a loaded round.
Get a case headspace gage, such as an RCBS Precision Mic or Hornady gage. They'll measure your case headspace from head to shoulder so you can tell when your die's set to set fired case shoulders back no more than 2 thousandths. Best safety, accuracy and case life happens when this is done.
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elkaholic
Well-Known Member
+1 on that suggestion. I blew a few cases on fireforming my 6.5 A.I. until I learned the proper way to do it and leaving a few thou extra clearance in sizing accomplishes the same thing......RichThis thread's got some interesting and sometimes dangerous practices posted. Here's a dangerous one
Turning a die 1/4th turn changes its height about 18 thousandths. Die threads at 14 per inch have a bit over 71 thousandths between threads. Adjusting a die 1/4th turn at a time will easily get a full length sized case shoulder set back far enough to guarantee head separation really quick with rimless bottleneck cases. Don't change the die height more than 4 thousandths or 1/16th of a turn when searching for the right case headspace to safely and properly fit your chamber. There shouldn't be more than 5 thousandths headspace clearance on a loaded round.
Get a case headspace gage, such as an RCBS Precision Mic or Hornady gage. They'll measure your case headspace from head to shoulder so you can tell when your die's set to set fired case shoulders back no more than 2 thousandths. Best safety, accuracy and case life happens when this is done.
Fitch
Well-Known Member
This thread's got some interesting and sometimes dangerous practices posted. Here's a dangerous one
My initial thought is that if doing that results in a case that is too short for safety, the die is defective. Why do I think that?
I think that because one should be able to screw the FL sizing die down into full firm contact with the shell holder and end up with FL sized brass at the SAAMI spec. The instructions on every FL sizing die I ever owned says to do just that. So I am confused, how does screwing it down to less than contact result in too short a case?
Thanks
Fitch
Kiwi Nate
Well-Known Member
I think calling the 1/4 turn increments on the FL die a dangerous practice is out of context. I do agree with you though Bart, 1/4 of a turn is heavy handed when I think about how I actually screw down the die.
Light polishing of the chamber won't create a bulge if the sand paper was backed by a soft backer. If the backer was hard such as sand paper wrapped around a drill bit (cringe), a bulge would occur. I have polished up a couple of very old gun chambers, just hacks (SMLE .303's). Plug the throat and lead and polish the case body area very lightly. I wouldn't do it with a 'good' rifle but it sounds like you have been in a pretty bad situation for a while.
As you say, the bulge should appear as an unsanded low spot if it was there in the first place. If H&R see that it has been sanded, they may not want to help you. Chamber bulges do occur once in a while. A bad reamer wouldn't do it. If the reamer or barrel became loose at the beginning of the cut and was then reset and the job continued, it 'might' happen. It seems more like a soft spot in the parent steel of the chamber.
Light polishing of the chamber won't create a bulge if the sand paper was backed by a soft backer. If the backer was hard such as sand paper wrapped around a drill bit (cringe), a bulge would occur. I have polished up a couple of very old gun chambers, just hacks (SMLE .303's). Plug the throat and lead and polish the case body area very lightly. I wouldn't do it with a 'good' rifle but it sounds like you have been in a pretty bad situation for a while.
As you say, the bulge should appear as an unsanded low spot if it was there in the first place. If H&R see that it has been sanded, they may not want to help you. Chamber bulges do occur once in a while. A bad reamer wouldn't do it. If the reamer or barrel became loose at the beginning of the cut and was then reset and the job continued, it 'might' happen. It seems more like a soft spot in the parent steel of the chamber.
elkaholic
Well-Known Member
If you screw it down (to cam over)too far, it bumps the shoulder back how ever far you have turned it down beyond just touching. Since the case headspaces off of the shoulder, you can easily have excessive headspace. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think anything over about .005 is considered loose........Rich
OK I rechecked all my cases that I reloaded and the ones i did not after the suggestions i got back. Looked closer at my problem.
Step 1: checked new never fired brass along its length with a straight edge. NO deformation or bulging.
Step 2: Check once fired brass with straght edge also. Noticed that it had a slight bulge in the area where the other brass had cracked and one had seperated- the stuck case. Also the once fired brass was before the case seperated and got stuck. And before any sanding was done.
Step 3: Checked reloaded brass and noticed same bulge in the same area with a straight edge. Also looked inside brass with a flashlight and noticed that the bulge was uneven. More on one side than the other. Also used a bent paperclip and could feel the deformation more on side just like i had seen.
Step 4 : Scratching my head??????
Step 5: Looked in the chamber of my gun with flashlight. Saw the sanding marks where i had taken down burrs with sandpaper from stuck case removal. Also noticed while looking inside that there was a low spot in the chamber which was NOT TOUCHED by the sanding. It is in the area where the brass was bulging. I can see the chamber straight on because the gun is a break open action. I dont think you could notice this with a bolt action? It was NOT a shadow from the light either. I could definately see the low spot.
Step 6 : Wondering if when the chamber was cut that some how the the tooling was crooked? That would be the only way that i could think of how that low spot was in the chamber?
Step 7 : Called H&R this morning and they are sending me a shipping label so i can send it in for them to take a look at the gun. Explained to them what i had found. will keep everyone updated.
Measurements are as follows :
New brass never fired - no bulge 11/32 from bottom of case
Once fired brass - bulge 11/32 from bottom of case shot before stuck case happened
Reloaded brass - bulge 11/32 from bottom of case
Rifle chamber - measured where low spot is guess what 11/32 from the end of chamber
Caliper measurements 11/32 from bottom of case
new never fired brass - 0.463
once fired brass - 0.471
reloaded brass - 0.471
All the brass that did have a crack, cracked on one side and then the crack almost goes all the way around. Also the ones that did crack all had flattened primers except for one. Some brass that day did not crack but you can see a slight hair line crack on the them. Also looking inside of them they show the bulge is more on one side that the other. Also looking at the inside of the once fired brass it also shows a bulge on side. Well hope this clarifies it some.
Step 1: checked new never fired brass along its length with a straight edge. NO deformation or bulging.
Step 2: Check once fired brass with straght edge also. Noticed that it had a slight bulge in the area where the other brass had cracked and one had seperated- the stuck case. Also the once fired brass was before the case seperated and got stuck. And before any sanding was done.
Step 3: Checked reloaded brass and noticed same bulge in the same area with a straight edge. Also looked inside brass with a flashlight and noticed that the bulge was uneven. More on one side than the other. Also used a bent paperclip and could feel the deformation more on side just like i had seen.
Step 4 : Scratching my head??????
Step 5: Looked in the chamber of my gun with flashlight. Saw the sanding marks where i had taken down burrs with sandpaper from stuck case removal. Also noticed while looking inside that there was a low spot in the chamber which was NOT TOUCHED by the sanding. It is in the area where the brass was bulging. I can see the chamber straight on because the gun is a break open action. I dont think you could notice this with a bolt action? It was NOT a shadow from the light either. I could definately see the low spot.
Step 6 : Wondering if when the chamber was cut that some how the the tooling was crooked? That would be the only way that i could think of how that low spot was in the chamber?
Step 7 : Called H&R this morning and they are sending me a shipping label so i can send it in for them to take a look at the gun. Explained to them what i had found. will keep everyone updated.
Measurements are as follows :
New brass never fired - no bulge 11/32 from bottom of case
Once fired brass - bulge 11/32 from bottom of case shot before stuck case happened
Reloaded brass - bulge 11/32 from bottom of case
Rifle chamber - measured where low spot is guess what 11/32 from the end of chamber
Caliper measurements 11/32 from bottom of case
new never fired brass - 0.463
once fired brass - 0.471
reloaded brass - 0.471
All the brass that did have a crack, cracked on one side and then the crack almost goes all the way around. Also the ones that did crack all had flattened primers except for one. Some brass that day did not crack but you can see a slight hair line crack on the them. Also looking inside of them they show the bulge is more on one side that the other. Also looking at the inside of the once fired brass it also shows a bulge on side. Well hope this clarifies it some.
Rich, you're about right for your 5 thousandths extra headspace number.
SAAMI specs for .25-06 chamber headspace is from 2.0487" GO to 2.0587" NO-GO. (Note: the .25-06 headspaces on a .3750" diameter datum about mid point on its shoulder; same place the .30-06 does. The old 1.9480" GO headspace that many older gages are marked with is referenced at the shoulder-body junction diameter of .4410"). Specs for new cartridges' headspace is from 2.0519" to 2.0526". Which means when both ammo and barrel's chambers are within SAAMI specs, there'll be from -.0039" to +.0068" headspace clearance between the case head and bolt face when the round fires. Yes, it's possible to have the bolt bind on a round with maximum headspace in a minimum headspace chamber, but this rarely happens. New cases will easily withstand their back half stretching 7 thousandths the first time they're fired. And fired case headspace will be about 1 thousandth shorter than chamber headspace.
If the fired case is full sized such that its shoulder's set back too far, one's gone past SAAMI safety stuff. Do the math and see how there's only about 5 to 6 thousandths working space to set a fired .25-06 case's shoulder back Hence, the value of a good case headspace gage.
I can't really tell what the heck you're talking about.
Based on your orig post, the gouge in your chamber was the result of your issue, not the cause. Seems like the tail is wagging the dog .
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Fitch
Well-Known Member
I don't think that's correct. The shell holder touches the bottom of the die. It doesn't fit inside the die and can't go any farther toward the shoulder than the bottom of the die no matter how far in you turn the die. The die is not compressable at force levels generated by a manually operated press. If the die is designed to be set up at contact, which all of the ones I have are, it is physically impossible to size the brass too short for SAAMI specs. If it is too short for the chamber it is because the chamber is too long.
Try an experiment. Screw the die in till you get firm contact with the shell holder. Size a case. Measure the base to shoulder distance. Screw the die in two full turns more. Size another case, the two cases will be the same base to shoulder distance.
[/QUOTE]Since the case headspaces off of the shoulder, you can easily have excessive headspace. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think anything over about .005 is considered loose........Rich[/QUOTE]
The only way to get excessive headspace is if the chamber is out of spec long or the die is out of spec short. There is the possibility that the chamber it self has excessive headspace which is readily determined by using a no-go gage. If that is the case it would be possible to have the brass too short for the chamber but still within specification. In such a case it would also be bad to shoot factory ammo in that rifle.
What am I missing here?
Fitch
Since the case headspaces off of the shoulder, you can easily have excessive headspace. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think anything over about .005 is considered loose........Rich[/QUOTE]
The only way to get excessive headspace is if the chamber is out of spec long or the die is out of spec short. There is the possibility that the chamber it self has excessive headspace which is readily determined by using a no-go gage. If that is the case it would be possible to have the brass too short for the chamber but still within specification. In such a case it would also be bad to shoot factory ammo in that rifle.
What am I missing here? [/QUOTE]
Fitch
You are "assuming" that the die screwed down until it touches the shellholder actually matches your chamber. That is the first mistake!
Like Bart said, you either have to use some type of precison mike or bump gauge to measure your fired cases on the shoulder. From that you only want to bump back .0015-.002.
Many times you can screw the die all the way down and get .015 or more push back which will lead to case head separation.
There are variances in shell holder heights, dies and such that you cannot just screw the dies down, resize and expect long case life.
I have also seen dies that had to have .020 ground off the bottom of the die to get proper sizing.
FL sizing is sizing the body AND moving the shoulder back some, the only question is how far pushing it back.
Different mftr of the dies have different thread pitchs and a 1/4 turn does not equal a quarter turn with the next die.
Get in the habit of measuring the shoulder, starting high of the shoulder and coming down very little at a time until you get the no more than .002 shoulder push. Forget the mftrs instructions, they are not designed for long brass life.
BH
