22-250 for heavier bullets?

[milanuk]

I hadn't followed this thread recently; a lot of good information since I checked last!

I just traded off a 'problem child' Ruger 77VTMkII towards a Savage 10FP-LE2 (26" .308 Win). That particular config is for a specific application (the occasional 'tactical' match around here), but otherwise I was thinking it'd make a dandy little gun for SWBMO to plink along with, maybe even talk her into shooting at a few of the F-class style matches around the state (some of the Prone matches let pretty much anybody shoot along, so some of the shooting would be at 300, 500, 600, on out).

I have some neck-turned .22-250 brass (Winchester) on hand from the Ruger, but I'm not going to cry too much if I have to pitch 'em. I do have some NIB Norma brass that was a *lot* more $$$, so I'd like to use that stuff if I can. If not, I'm sure I can find a buyer

I was thinking a 1-8" twist .22-250, or .22-250 AI. A number of guys I've talked w/ locally seem to think the world of a .22 BR instead of a .22-250, but they aren't looking to push 75-80gr bullets either. Not sure how the .22 BR does for this sort of tinkering?

The one thing I keep hearing as a 'negative' to the .22-250 AI is that the neck gets too short, and I must admit from looking at some pic's of the loaded rounds on this site and this one as well it sure looks a bit stubby.

Those of you who have been shooting the AI version for a while... any problems w/ the short neck?

As far as the 75gr A-Max's blowing up... I don't know if the current production lots do, but I've shot next to some guys who had shots not make it to the target in NRA HighPower XTC w/ them, out of a .223 Rem in a AR. These guys were Masters and High Masters, so I highly doubt they just up and missed the target entirely. Dunno what happened, but something went wonky. Others have shot them continuously w/ great success. As best I can tell, the A-maxes of a few year years ago had some issues, and a lot of competitive shooters got burned w/ bullets not making it to the target, and Hornady got 'branded' as unreliable for it inside the community. Agree, disagree, dunno. I've got a whole bunch of 75gr BTHP's waiting to get run thru my AR Service Rifle, and when I run out of 80gr J4's I plan on trying some 75gr A-Max's as they are even cheaper than the J4's... always a good thing when loading in volume!

Thanks,

Monte

 

[goodgrouper]

milanuk,
I don't know if you read one of my earlier posts on this subject on page one, but I own two of the .22-.250 improved's. One is a fast twist in which I shoot the 75 a-max and the other is a 14" twist for the 55 Blitzkings. Don't let the stories of the short neck scare you. If you use bushing neck dies to control your bullet grip it is NOT a problem! I repeat. Not a problem. As far as the .22 br is concerned, Fifty-driver is right. It is great in it's un-altered form and without doubt is better than a standard .22-.250 for the normal weight bullets, but it lacks the muscle for the 75 grain A-max. This bullet has wonderful bc but if you can't get it moving fast enough, it almost isn't worth it. A good rule of thumb that I have come to agree with lately is to match the bullet to the case capacity,bore diameter, and the expansion ratio of the gases. The br was designed for the 50 to 60 grain bullets and it will shoot them efficiently and accurately, but it just needs a little more case capacity to fling the 75-80's. As for the 75's blowing up in the AR's, they may have. I read an article several years ago that I think was written by M.L. Mcpherson in which he noted that hot loads with these bullets in AR-15's sometimes blew up because of the chrome-plated bores often found in those guns. It seems to be a little rough or constrictive on that REALLY thin jacket Hornady uses. Speaking of constriction, you might want to check out the correspondece fifty-driver and I have had on the previous posts on this page. We may be on to something here. Three grooves may be tougher on the bullets than traditional 6 (or in my case) 8 groove barrels! My slow twist improved has a 3 groove and I haven't noticed any problems with it but it shoots bullets that are half as long with almost half the RPM's.
-goodgrouper

 

[milanuk]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>
Don't let the stories of the short neck scare you. If you use bushing neck dies to control your bullet grip it is NOT a problem! I repeat. Not a problem.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good to hear!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>
I read an article several years ago that I think was written by M.L. Mcpherson in which he noted that hot loads with these bullets in AR-15's sometimes blew up because of the chrome-plated bores often found in those guns.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If that's what you read, then he needs to stick w/ what he knows, which doesn't sound like it's HP. Bushmaster might still use chrome-lined barrels in their DCM/CMP uppers, but I'd say they are about the only one, and you don't see very many of those guns on the line in their stock form for very long. Even so, if a chrome-lined barrel can spin a 50gr TNT pushed as fast as I can get to go doesn't come apart in an Bushmaster barrel... I'd lean towards it being something btwn the more fouling accumulated due to the longer strings btwn cleaning, and some bad batches of bullets (people that moly coat their own bullets mentioned that they used to see the tips literally fall out during tumbling. Not good for downrange stability).

In any event, like I said, some people have seen them go, some haven't. I kind of suspect there was a problem but Hornady got on top of it.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>
This bullet has wonderful bc but if you can't get it moving fast enough, it almost isn't worth it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seems plenty worth it to people shooting a .223 Rem, not sure why it wouldn't be for a .22-250.

Something else... any noticeable difference in barrel life w/ the heavy bullets btwn the .22-250 and the AI version?

Thanks,

Monte

 

[Fiftydriver]

Milanuk,

I have to agree with good grouper about the 22-250 AI. It actually has a slightly longer neck then the standard 22-250. Of the custom rifles I have built, I have yet to have anyone have a problem with this neck length as long as they prep cases properly.

I have yet to have a 22-250 average over 1/2 moa and most are runing in the 1/4 moa range at 100 yards with conventional bullets.

As far as loading the big VLD bullets in this neck. It really makes no difference as long as there is adiquate neck tension and your neck run outs are controled.

I also highly recommend an in-line seater to limit bullet run-out to less then 0.002" for shooting under 300 yards and 0.001" or less for extreme range shooting.

As far as the BR goes, it is a fine round, especially for conventional bullet weights. It has been used with decent results by the extreme range crowd when used in barrels that will allow 3000 fps with the 75-80 gr bullets.

This mind you is for paper punching and not live targets. For extreme range varminting, I can not recommend this round or the other fine small cased rounds that are extremely accurate and consistant but lack the power to effectively harvest game at extended ranges.

I still say the 22-250 AI is the minimum I would recommend to a customer for hunting chuck size game out past 600 yards and even that is marginal.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[goodgrouper]

milanuk,
Read my post a little more carefully. I said that the 75 bullet would be a little heavy for the br, not the .22-.250. Remember me saying I had one? I love it. It has the muscle for the 75. I also said that I have pushed the 75 a-max at 3400 and it didn't blow up. I love that bullet. I said it MAY HAVE blown up in those AR's, and then cited you a possible explanation. As for the guys shooting 80's in their .223's, I say come on out to the range and try to outshoot anyone's 22-6mm or .22-250 AI firing the same bullet. Betcha a Franklin the .223 won't win-especially if there's a wind. As for barrel life, I've got about 2000 rounds down it and it's still going. I'll keep you posted. good shooting
-goodgrouper

[ 09-17-2004: Message edited by: goodgrouper ]

 

[Guest]

"I can not recommend this round or the other fine small cased rounds that are extremely accurate and consistant but lack the power to effectively harvest game at extended ranges.

I still say the 22-250 AI is the minimum I would recommend to a customer for hunting chuck size game out past 600 yards and even that is marginal.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)

This is just not the case. With a standard 22-250 and 80 grain JLK bullets we still have 520 ft. lbs plus of energy at 800 yards! That is the equal of a 45 acp +P at point blank range. More than enough to dispatch a 40 lb. varmit. That will kill a human deader than a doornail, it will sure work on a rodent. The hardest part is gettin the windage right, the energy is more than there past 600 yards.

 

[milanuk]

Sorry if I mis-attributed the bit about the BR vs. the AI or whatever. I thought I was pretty clear on the 75gr A-Max bit I was referring to M.L McP being the one I disagreed w/ as far as the reason (chrome-lined bore), not you. I apologize about the confusion.

As far as the guys w/ the 80's... I'd love to see you fit a .22-250 AI in an AR and actually have it feed reliably

It can be done, but from what I read, it ain't all that fun. The guys running Service Rifle have no choice; the guys running space guns are opting for close to peak performance in 200/300 Rapids and acceptable performance w/ an 80 or 90gr VLD at 600. I shoot a 6.5-08, and still get whomped by any number of them. It ain't all about the gun in that game

I've heard of a few people shooting a .22-250 at distance w/ a fast twist in Prone/F-class. No AI's that I've heard of (not that they aren't out there). HP shooters seem to have this thing about bullets are going to explode regularly and their barrels are going to melt in under a 1000 rds and accuracy will go to hell in a handbasket if they shoot over 3000fps. Urban legend, I dunno. I shoot a 123gr Lapua Scenar at 3100fps and get chided all the time to use a 142gr SMK, nothing else. Just gotta look at 'em, smile, and try my best to shoot an 'X'.

2000rds? That's great. Something to look forward to.

Thanks,

Monte

 

[Fiftydriver]

Antslayer,

I was referring to the 22 BR and cases in that class not the 22-250 class of rounds.

In one of the previous posts the question of what do you think about the BR came up.

I think it is a great paper punching round but it does not hold a candle to the 22-250 class rounds.

Good Shooting!!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Guest]

"I still say the 22-250 AI is the minimum I would recommend to a customer for hunting chuck size game out past 600 yards and even that is marginal."

I am sorry, I must have misinterpreted your definitions of "minimum" and "marginal". Is not the 22-250 AI even more powerful than the standard 22-250?

Good Shooting!!!

 

[Fiftydriver]

Antslayer,

It is my opinion that with the frontal area of the .224 bullets and the low expansion rate of match bullets at teh velocities they are going at 600 yards and beyond that the 22-250 AI is what I recommend for starting point for a dedicated chuck rifle to be used at 600 yards and beyond.

Can others be used, of course, but if your building a rifle for such a task, why would you build somthing that may work most of the time instead of something that will work all of the time if you do your job?

Comparing a .452" bullet with 520 ft/lbs of energy to a .224" bullet with the same energy is nto a good comparision at all.

Even using your example, shoot a chuck in the guts at 5 yards and tell me if it will make it back to its den to die a slow death, YES it will, everytime, it also will do the same with an 80 gr JLK bullet with 520 ft/lbs of energy if hit poorly.

Sure, you hit the head or chest then you will get a kill, if you hit on the fringes with a 22-250 at 600 yards with these bullets, you will loose the chuck to its den nearly every time.

This is no opinion, this is from experience in the field from myself and from watching dozens of my hunting partners and customers.

Not to mention, it is difficult to even see a clear impact point with an 80 gr bullet at 800 yards. Which is only a problem is you miss once in a while which I am sure no one here ever does, I certainly never do!

I still stand by my opinion, the 22-250 will work but there are dozens of rounds that will vastly out perform it for this type of hunting.

All you have to do it honestly use the 22-250 at 600-800 yards and you will see this as well. Numbers on paper and comparing those numbers to big bore handguns means nothing on the chuck hill.

Chucks are killed at long range by the following:

1. Solid hits
2. Tissue Damage

The solid hits are easy, relatively that is. The tissue damage is the problem. To get a bullet that will open up fast enough to expand inside a chuck is difficult. Most match bullets will not expand much if any. Most of their damage is done when bone is struck adn the bone itself becomes secondary projectiles destroying a large amount of tissue.

If hit in soft tissue, the match bullets will simply pass through chuck without doing enough damage to stop them on impact.

To get a bullet that will expand this quickly, you need a tipped bullet such as the A-Max which is vastly better then the other match bullets but still it does not expand nearly as fast as the varmint designed tipped bullets like the Ballistic Tip, V-Max and Blitzking.

Still these will not cut the mustard at extreme range so we need enough velocity and energy in the A-Max to work effectively on chuck size targets.

If you can score heads shots all the time at 800 yards I am wasting my print on you as youare beyond my level of expertise and I apologize for wasting your time and mine as well.

I firmly stand by my original comment, I see the 22-250 AI with 75 gr A-Max bullets driven to top levels as minimum for chuck hunting out to 600 yards and beyond if you want any sort of consistant performance on target.

Hell at 800-1000 yards, I have flipped chucks several feet in the air with my 6mm-284 launching the 107 gr Mk at 3500 fps only to have then hit the ground running since the 107 r Mk did not open up enough to cause severe tissue damage.

Where as I have hit chucks at the same ranges with a 100 gr Ballistic Tip out of a 25-06 driven to 3450 fps and they flat out came apart, literally.

The energy was far less with the 25-06 compared to the very efficent and much faster 107 gr 6mm bullet. Why does the 25 perform better then, Frontal area and explosive expansion, pure and simple.

This is where all 224 rounds suffer at extreme range, no way around it for game performance.

Again this is not opinion, its what I have witnessed in the field. If you think it is enough power for this use, then by all means do what you do. I am just relating what I have see first hand several dozens of times.

Good Shooting!!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[TracySes23]

I have been trying to to find someone who has had experience with several different bullets considered heavyweight for a 22-250 in years past.
I have:
4 boxes - Sierra 63 grain Semi Pointed
2 boxes - Hornady 60 grain Spire Point
4 boxes - Hornady 60 grain Hollow Pointed
I also have a 788 Remington that shoots great with 55 grain Speer & 55 grain Sierra Spitzers, which I also have plenty of.
what I really want to know is if any experienced shooter has had good accuracy results with the 1-14 twist using these heavier bullets I've listed above.
I know the 70 grain Speers will shoot very consistent in my 788, but 3/4" to 15/16" 5 shot groups where the best it would ever do.
I'm also considering a new Savage 12 VLP DBM in the 22-250, within the next year or so. I'd like to know if the 1 in 12 or the 1 in 9 twist would give good accuracy with 52 & 52 grain Sierra Bench Rest bullets as I have 7 boxes of those two total. In other words I have a lot of .22 caliber bullets I want to shoot and I love to punch paper. I now have a range available that has 500 yards for me to place with.
I've had these bullets since I gave up my FFL in the late 80's.
I would love to hear you some of you old-timers out there.

 

[Bwhittty]

I too have a 22-250AI. Current load is 39.0 grains of H414, 75 Amax, Win Brass, and Win Primers. However, I just measured my throat and it is .085 longer than originally measured. It has approx 800 rounds through it. Does that seem correct?

 

[TracySes23]

I too have a 22-250AI. Current load is 39.0 grains of H414, 75 Amax, Win Brass, and Win Primers. However, I just measured my throat and it is .085 longer than originally measured. It has approx 800 rounds through it. Does that seem correct?

Kinda depends on how much time you allow between shots.
After the first 5 shots, I generally wait between 2-3 minutes between shots depending on how hot the ambient temperature is. I never allow the barrel to become so hot it's uncomfortable to leave my hand on it. However I'm shooting the standard 22-250 in a LRPV Savage action. My barrel is a Shilen 26" Select Match with a .250 tight necked chamber.
I've put 1100 rounds thru this barrel & the throat hasn't changed more than .010" to .015".
I bought the tight-necked chamber for only one reason... To increase case life. To date I've reloaded my Lapua brass 14 times & the brass shows no signs of failing.
I read an article at 6mmBR.com a few years back & learned that some bench rest shooters are getting 100 plus reloads from their brass, simply because the brass isn't worked as much. I use bump-neck bushing dies to neck size the O.D. in order to get the I.D of the neck the proper size. I neck turn the brass to a .012" wall thickness which gives me a clearance of .002" total clearance. I never use a standard sizing die anymore.
My original standard chamber was .258". Neck sizing down & up again I suspect Im working the brass at least 80% less. that using the conventional method.
From my perspective, there's only one downside this. You can't chamber factory ammunition in a tight-necked chamber or use un-turned brass.
If I get a group over .375', it's only because of my inability to see well or a wobbly bench. I'm my own worst critic, I always take credit for flyers. I'm sure in capable hands It's not uncommon for me to get 3-4 shot groups from .1"-.3". My 77 year old eyes suck.
I suspect if I live long enough, my barrel will last for another 3,000 rounds. Maybe longer if I get one of those barrel cooling devices.
Just an after thought. The 53 grain V-Max has a higher B.C. than any of the lightweight 22 caliber bullets I've seen & better than some 60 grain & over. When I first loaded for it, I was concerned it might disintegrate from spinning too fast. I was wrong! It shoots as good or better than any other bullet I've shot.

 

[Bwhittty]

False alarm. Bad modified case giving false readings from lands to ogive. Making another one as we speak. Interesting you bring up the 53 grain Vmax. I played around with those last weekend. My gun has a 1:9 Hart @ 27" long. I shot a ladder test with Win Brass, CCI BR2 primers, H414 (43-45 in .5 increments). The node was apparent at 43.5. So I loaded from 43-44 in .2 increments. At 43.6 I shot the first (2) in the same hole and then the 3rd shot was pulled out (by-some ******* operating the trigger) to a .304 group size @ 100. Speeds were 3887,3898, 3898. Obviously I was very pleased with this! So now I have a 75 Amax load (chucks and wind) and a 53 vmax load (rats and chucks with little to no wind). Have to get back to you on how far they are jumping