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22-250 for heavier bullets?

I have heard reports of the 75gr A-Max "dusting" in fast twist rifles but my experience would differ.

I have a 22-243AI w/8" twist and the rifle loves the big A-Max bullet. I shoot them @ 3,670 ft/sec and have never dusted a single bullet. Accuracy is exceptional and I made several one shot kills on groundhogs at over 800yds this season.
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The 80gr bullets never shot as well in my rifle. If I had it to do over again I'd go with a 9" twist and keep everything else the same.

If you want to shoot the .224" heavies than you need some case capacity to generate horsepower. I like the 22-250AI as a minimum and would prefer the SwiftAI or 22-243.

I would also suggest getting a longer barrel than you need so that you can, at some point, set it back and rechamber without going for the expense of a new barrel.

Just my 2 cents - VH
 
Fifty Driver, My experience with both the 22/250 AI, and 220 Swift AI, found that the 220 Swift AI has a velocity advantage of 100 - 150 fps with bullets of 55 grains in weight.

However, that increases to well over 200 fps with bullets of 69 grains and above. I have found that this principle holds true with most larger cases in a particular calibre, that the biggest velocity gains are with the heaviest bullets. My records show that:

22/250 AI (28 deg) - capacity 48.0 grains
Rifle 1- Shilen SS 27 inch, 1 in 14 twist.
53 grain Sierra HP
40.5 grains IMR 4064 - 4,011 fps (max)
60 grain Hornady HP
46.0 grains Norma 205 - 3,782 fps (max)

22/250 AI (28 deg) - capacity 49.2 grains.
Rifle 2 Shilen 24.5 inch, 1 in 14 twist.
Sierra 69 HPBT
43.5 grains WIN WXR - 3,465 fps (Max)
44.0 grains Rel 22 - 3,442 fps (Max)
46.0 grains WIN WMR - 3,428 fps (Near Max)
55 and 60 grain bullet weights will be tested in near future.

220 Swift AI (40 degree)- Capacity 55.4 grns
Rifle 1- Shilen 25.25 inch, 1 in 12 twist
Sierra 53 grain HP
49.0 grains IMR 4831 - 4,146 fps (Max)
Sierra 55 grain SPBT
49.0 grains IMR 4831 - 4,128 fps (Max)
Nosler 60 grain SPBT
47.0 grains IMR 4831 - 3,906 fps (Max)
Sierra 69 grain HPBT (did not stabilise)
48.5 grains IMR 7828 - 3,653 fps (Max)
47.5 grains Norma MRP -3,782 fps (Max)*
* my gunsmith achieved this velocity prior to shipping to me. Unfortunately I could not source Norma MRP.
Regards, Brian.
 
varmint hunter,
I also heard of rumors of the a-max blowing up and I agree completely that they don't. I even pushed them at 3700 fps out of my ridiculous .22-.284 and no blow-ups. They wouldn't hold a 3" group at 100 yards to save my life at that velocity though. I don't know if 50driver has ever really fired them or maybe he just got a bad lot.
 
Varmint Hunter and Goodgrouper,

I have heard good reports with these bullets used at higher velocities. Personally I have yet to see an A-Max handle anything over 3250 fps and hold extreme accuracy out of a true 1-8" barrel.

THe only experience I have with the 1-8 twist barrels with the A-Max bullets is with my personal 6mm-284 which shots the 105 gr A-Max into 1/5 moa levels at 500 yards until velocity gets to almost exactly 3250 fps. From there groups grow to about 4" at 500 yards.

The Berger 105 gr VLD was very similiar except that it grouped well only until 3200 fps.

With these velocities I might as well been shooting a 243 AI out of my 30" Lilja.

I have also witnessed one of my custom rifles chambered in 22-6mm AI do nearly the exact same thing with the 75 gr A-Max when velocities hit just under 3300 fps with this rifle.

THe 6.5mm was in a custom 6.5 STW with a 1-8 twist. It lost accuracy in teh 3200 fps range as well.

I am not saying that these bullets disintegrate in mid air, only that their accuracy dropped off greatly in these three different rifles using 1-8 twists.

In contrast, like I stated before, I also have a custom rifle that a customer is shooting the 105 gr A-Max out of a 6mm-06 at just shy of 3600 fps with groups in the 3's but this is with a 1-9 barrel.

I measure all of my barrels for twist before I start machining them. One would be suprised how a 1-8 barrel often turn out to be a 1-8.5 or even 1-9. This is especially true with the button rifled barrels.

Not so much a problem with cut rifled but alot of buttoned barrels are not what they are supposed to be.

I prefer and highly recommend Lilja barrels and they too are buttoned rifled but I have yet to see one that was not marked true.

I am not disclaiming you and your results, just stating that I have not had good results with the A-Max in 1-8 barrels loaded above 3250 fps.

Under that they are some of the most accurate bullets comercially made and on game performance is better then any other commercial long range bullet.

In all these cases I list, the barrels were 3 groove Lilja barrels. What barrels are you guys using to get these velocities with good accuracy?

Maybe its a 3 groove problem more then a velocity problem...

Have a good evening!!

Kirby Allen(50)
 
fiftydriver
Thanks for clearing that up. I have a Shilen select match barrel that seems to be exceptionally smooth and unusually fast. Maybe the reason we have had somewhat different summaries is because my barrel just happens to be an 8 groove! I don't know if it's good or bad but it does seem to work fine. Another thing that you might find interesting is that it was originally a .22-.284 chambering in 29.5" configuration. I shot 900 rounds through it very carefully when it started blowing up Bergers, and then 100 rounds after that it started blowing up Sierra's. I then cut off the bad parts(3 inches in the throught and 1 inch in the crown)and rechambered for the 22-250 AI. It's accuracy came back and shoots with a vengeance now. I actually got good accuracy at the 3250 fps mark you mentioned, but the standard deviation was around 25 fps and that just won't do for consistent 1000 yard accuracy. And when I talk about accuracy, I say "good" but that is a relative term. I alway got better groups at 400 yards than at 100. Honest. On a stack of Bibles. I think the best group I ever got with it at 100 was 7/8" and best at 600 was 2.5" 3 shot center to center. As for the twist changing further down the barrel, or actually not being a true 8", it could easy be. I have never really checked it, but I have read of such things happening before.
-goodgrouper

[ 09-15-2004: Message edited by: goodgrouper ]
 
thanks kirby and the rest of you gentlemen.
i am building a 220 swift using a pac-nor 1-9" 3 groove remington magnun contour and fluted on a remington 700 titanium action. i have grown tired and grumpy in my old age. tired of coyotes moving out to 500-600 yards, sitting there cussing me out. and yes this is a revenge thing. i am hoping the 75 gr amax or maybe the 65 gr sierra will get the job done.
 
Goodgrouper,

The finish on teh bore of the Lilja barrels are flat out mirror finished.

What I am thinking is that perhaps the thicker diameter of the lands on teh 3 groove system is compressing to much jacket aarea and compromising the jacket-core integrity. This would make sence with the thin hacketed match bullets and may explain why the thicker Matchkings can handle it better.

If the jacket springs back slightly when the bullet is released by the muzzle, the greater area compressed by the 3 groove system may be the problem. The jacket will spring back but the soft lead core will not so you get a situation of jacket-core seperation.

We may be onto something here. That 6mm-06 I wrote about is a Kreiger 4 groove. THis rifling is more traditional in land widith as well. Interesting!!

I totally agree with you on the grouping of your rifle. My customers come to pick up their extreme range rifles I build for them and when we head out to the range the first thing I tell them that if you get any group under an inch at 100 yards, take it out to at least 300 yards and I prefer 500 yards minumim and you will be very impressed.

I have seen what you discribe hundreds of times with my rifles. You will get a 3/4 moa group at 100 yards and then when you back up to 300 yards you get 1/3 moa and then at 500 yards you start playing with the 1/4 and 1/5 moa range.

My customers do not believe me until they see it so I know what you are stating is the honest trueth.

I may have to test this new theory out by getting a traditional 6 or 8 groove 1-8 Lilja ant test it with these bullets. For extreme range varmint rifles I would much prefer to use the A-Max for its better on target performance.

For paper punching the three groove design allows longer throat life, this is why I prefer it for the big cased small bore wildcats.

Good Shooting!!!

Kirby Allen(50)
 
Foxhunter,

Let us know how your rifle turns out and how it shoots. Sounds like it will be fine medicine for those cocky yotes!!

Good Shooting!!!

Kirby Allen(50)
 
My 22-243AI wears a 28" Hart, 8 twist barrel. If I had to guess why I never "dust" A-Maxs at the 3,670 ft/sec, I'd say it was because:

1. The barrel is most likely VERY smooth
2. I only shoot moly bullets. Moly definately takes stress off jackets as they obturate.
3. I load the A-Max bullets .007" into the lands. No jump and no smash into the rifling.

FIFTY DRIVER:
3/4 moa @ 100yds and 1/3moa @ 300yds? Yes this does seem hard to believe but my 22-243AI shoots <.5moa @ 200yds while shooting (occasionally) .1-.2's @ 600yds. If anyone ever told me that their rifle could do that I'd be snickering behind their back.


VH
 
Hi all, my experience has come from my standard 22-250 with a Hart 8 twist 6 groove barrel that finished out at 27". I had it throated for the Hornady 75 grain A-maxes. I have NEVER turned a 75 A-max into smoke.They are extremely accurate. I'm shooting groundhogs in Va. This bullet has a kill ratio of about 50% in "MY" gun. At 200 yards, it punched a hole thru a groundhog and left a 5-7 ft. groove in the ground behind him.... gave him a Texas heart shot and that took care of him. At 525 yards the A-max just spun one around and he ran in the hole. I now shoot the 68 grn. Stake RPVB @3500fps. and the 80 grn. Starke at 3100fps. The kill ratio is better, and I'm really watching the posts here on this cause the throat is growing on the barrel and I'm gonna rechamber it. Just can't quite decide.... 22-250 AI, 220 Swift Improved 40*, 22-243,22-6mm, etc. I have about 700 of the 68's and close to 400 of the 80's, plus Sierra may be coming out with a Blitzking in 69 grains... what a hoot. I think I need more velocity, and more hitting energy.... Whatcha think? Sam in Va.
 
Sam in VA,

I you came into my shop telling me this information I would not be suprised. In fact I am suprised the Stark bullet is perfroming better for you then the 75 gr A-Max on game but thats neither here nor there.

THe problem in my opinion is flat out lack of Horsepower for your needs. If you are paper punching the standard 22-250 in a fast twist barrel will work fine with match bullets.

If you want to drive these match bullets fast enough for effectively taking varmints, especially heavy varmints like chucks then you simply need more kenetic energy make these bullets perform.

Your kind of playing with fire anyway wanting any 22 caliber bullet to be real effective on game at long range but the larger cases will certainly work better.

The A-Max needs kenetic energy to expand. It really has nothing to do with transferring the energy to the varmint in general, it just needs a certain amount to open the bullet up.

You may be suprised to learn that unlike other tipped bullets like the Ballistic Tip, Blitzking and even Hornadies own V-Max, the A-Max polymer tip is not really designed to promote expansion. It does but this is not its design purpose.

It is intended to increase the length of the bullet without adding any real weight to the bullet. Thus increasing B.C. values without adding weight. It also shifts the center of balance of the bullet farther to the rear of the bullet which is felt to increase stabilty at extended ranges.

In the varmint style bullets, the polymer tips have angles on the inside of them that actually ack like a wedge forcing the bullet open when it impacts, not only open but it forces the bullet nose to go outward to violently expand.

In the A-Max bullets, the tip has no real internal wedging angles, just basically a flat end that extends down into the lead core.

This does promote expansion but not nearly as violently as the varmint bullets. It expands in a more controlled manor and this is why you are seeing it slip through hogs with little damage from side shots.

Liek you said, hitting them length wise allow the bullet to be in the target longer and thus more expansion is allowed to occur in target.

This may explain why the Stark bullet is performing better as it may be expanding quicker.

Anyway, back to my point. You need energy to make any bullet expand, the A-Max requires more enegy to expand violently then other tipped bullets.

This is why I would not recommend the standard 22-250 if the rifle will be used for extreme range varminting, anything outside 500 yards.

The AI version of this round offers a significant amount of velocity and energy increase and the 220 AI offers even more. These will just give you more effective range by keeping energy levels higher longer.

IF you came into my shop and said you wanted a rifle to use with the 75 gr A-Max and used strictly as a long range chuck rifle and you had no concerns about excessive damage, I would highly recommend the 22-6mm AI.

THe rifles I have built for customers are driving the 55 gr tipped bullets to 4200 fps out of 25" barrels with extremely mild loads using Rl-22.

For more velocity and higher pressures as well, one could use Rl-19 and I am sure get very close to 4300 fps with the 55 gr pills with acceptible pressures.

I prefer Rl-22 because with 55-56 gr of powder, you simply can not get any more powder in the case and pressures are far under what a typical 22-250 and 220 swift is loaded to for longer throat life.

Nothing else really compapred to thos round from what I have seen except perhaps the 224 Clark which is basically a 22-257. The 22-6mm AI is basically an improved Clark.

Compared to the smaller 22-250 AI and 220 Swift AI, there really is not a comparision.

Still it is best used as a hunting round for just the type of hunting you are doing. Use it for high volume varminting and you will be rebarreling it every season.

As a gunsmith, I like guys that use their 22-6mm AI for gopher hunting, keeps me busy, but for a customer, it can get pretty spendy.

If you want on game performance out of a 224 caliber round on game, you really need a bigger case then the standard 22-250 for shooting much past 400 yards.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)
 
Hindsight being 20/20 I agree! I wish I had chambered it differently the first time, and perhaps even chosen a different twist. Killing a goundhog is hard to do, and killing prairie dogs is easier.
I knew from the outset that the A-maxes were match bullets, not varmint bullets, I was just hoping against hope. I learned, use the right bullet and the right chambering for the critter & distance you wanna shoot. So this spring, I built a 243AI 10 twist for shooting out to 500 & beyond, and I love it! So, maybe I will finish out the 8 twist barrel with a hotrod.... 22-6mm??
Why not... Sam in Va.
 
Sam,

I'd suggest the 22-243 with no case alterations. This saves you the hassle and wasted bore life of case forming. You can also use high quality 243 Lapua brass. The 22-243 shoots nearly as fast as the 22-6mm's and should provide slightly longer barrel life.

Easy - fast & accurate. What more could a varminter want?
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VH
 
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