115g VLD Berger for deer?

[LB]

For the record; Fifty has stated facts and figures and a philosophy that closely resembles my own.

Without a clear definition, long range hunting is differnt things to different people.

I'm primarily a predator hunter, many years. I know how far an animal can move, while the bullet is in flight. Unless it is bedded, regardless of the caliber or chambering, you have to consider this factor, especially when talking about a cartridge like a 223.

Responding to questions is always risky. If a guy asks if it's okay to drive the Ortega Highway at 120 miles per hour, what are you going to tell him?

It's been done before?

I think not.

You have to qualify your response; closed course, professional driver, etc.

We know nothing about the man posting the original question. The fact that he asks the question, in the first place, shows that he has limited experience.

I think you have to error on the side of caution, be conservative...watch your back, so to speak. The hero stories should come later, when you are sure of your audience.
I have a few, myself.

But, it doesn't involve game animals.

I don't have a problem with anything written by Chris, whatever he is comfortable with, is fine by me, but I can't endorse (it) for the general public out there in cyberspace.

Good hunting. LB

edit: in the last sentence, I should have been a little more specific, depending on what the definition of "it" is.

[ 08-23-2004: Message edited by: LB ]

 

[chris matthews]

FiftyDriver,
I did not take offense to your statement at all. I was merely offering another side or point of view, that's all.
If you re-read my post I clearly stated that I respect all other's limitations. Whether this guy is capable of a 400 yard shot is up to him. All I said was in the right hands it is doable.
Like you said the question was posed and you answered it from your experience. Well, I did the very same- I answered from my experience. I can and have taken deer at 3-400 yards cleanly with a 223. I have seen deer taken at 1000 with a 243 Ackley. Wouldn't have been my first choice but it was done.
I guess my point is use what you can shoot accurately. I don't give a **** how big your stupid magnum is if you flinch 12 inches when you pull the trigger (not you personally but anybody in general.) The US has caught a BAD case of magnumitis and have forgotten that thousands of game animals have been taken with a 30/30 or a 30-06. If somebody shows the skill and marksmanship to take a deer at 400 with a 25-06 then I tip my hat to him....
Now so we don't cause Len to butter his toast on both sides, how's that saying go- No harm, No foul...
Enjoy your evening.

[ 08-23-2004: Message edited by: chris matthews ]

 

[Dave King]

Sometime you guys crack me up, Len's toast!!

Not Len but I'll bet he does this sometimes.

Oops, I agree with the better options of this thread just so we'll stay on topic.

[ 08-23-2004: Message edited by: Dave King ]

 

[Fiftydriver]

Chris,

A accept your point of view and agree to a point. With the proper bullet placed in the right location, the 223 will certainly harvest deer at 400 yards, as will the 243 AI at 1000 yards.

Your statement that others limitations do not influence your opinion is beside the point.

My arguement is that I have yet to see a 25-06 rifle shoot a long range designed bullet accurately enough for extreme range hunting.

It is a matter of improper bullet used with the incorrect riflign twist.

No matter what the range, the rifle hasto be able to shoot accurately first and formost. This is the most limiting factor with the 25-06 using VLD bullets of 115 grs and larger. They simply are not a real accurate combination.

Just as important as knowing ones personal limitations is knowing the limitations of the equipment they are using.

I do not see a nessesity in having a magnum round for extreme range shooting. In fact for 1000 yard chucking, I prefer my 6mm-284 with its 107 gr MK loaded to 3550 fps. With this load and rifle, I would take shots on deer size game out to 1000 yards with no problems at all because the rifle will easily hold 1/2 moa out to that range in ideal shooting conditions.

That said, for shooting out to 1500 and 2000 yards, we need velocity and high B.C. to keep bullet speed above supersonic levels or there is no chance for accurate shooting. A 223 or 243 or even 25-06 will not drive their heaviest, highest B.C. bullets fast enough to stay super sonic at 2000 yards.

This is where the larger rounds certainly have their place over the smaller rounds, not to mention trying to spot an 80 gr or 105-107 gr bullets impact at +1500 yards is basically impossible whereas a 300 gr, .338" is easily spotted.

Just because a vertain round will deliever a certain bullet on game at a certain distance, doen not mean that it is the correct choice for using at that distance and on a certain size of game.

My opinion is still that using the 223 on deer size game at 400 yards is fool hardy. Hell a 22-250 is head and shoulders above the level of performance that the 223 is and the 22-6mm AI's I have been building make the swift look pretty tame, beating the old speed king by at least 250 fps in same langth barrels.

And with no recoil out of a sporter weight rifle.

This is my point, WHY, use marginal rounds when there are so many better options so easily attainable without going to magnums or even the bigger bore like the 30 and 338 rounds.

Are you telling me the 223 and 243 are fully up to the game taking ability of the 6.5-284 and 6.5-06 AI?

If you are then I fear you are being dishonest with yourself. And anyone can easily shoot these rounds well past 1000 yards with a little practice.

Claims like your 223 stories always throw up the red flags in my mind.

My only question to you is WHY would you select that round. Because you can is not a good reason in my mind.

THe 243 AI can at least be loaded with quality bullets of desent S.D. and very good B.C.'s as well as generate pretty good velocity, the 223 combined with the 75-80 gr VLD bullets are at best sluggish at extended range.

Sure you can hit some impressively distant targets with the little 223 but again, WHY?

Hope you don't take offense to my post, as you said, just my opinion and you have yoursm I jsut do not disagree.

I do agree this is a location foro long range hunters to gather and share information. It is also an area where new shooters learn the basics and hearing an obviously experienced long range hunter say the 223 is as good as anything out to 400 yards is a disservice to them in my opinion.

For the record, I strong feel the 223 is not a long range or even medium game round in any form. In the 224 family alone it is low powered round.

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[LB]

Having miserably failed Diplomacy 101, it would be a waste of time to butter toast, unconventionally.

My turn in the barrel, not withstanding?

I feel that fiftydriver has made some strong points, probably because my ethical position is similiar.

However, Chris is still within his rights in sharing his opinions. And I may not agree with what he says, but I will defend to the death, his right to say it!

In fact, after you have been around awhile, you expect to have your opinion questioned, on the Boards. I salute those that stick their neck out and state their case. Works for me.

Good hunting. LB

edited for spelling

[ 08-23-2004: Message edited by: LB ]

 

[Donham]

I have used the 115 Berger VLD's in my rifle with good results.
My Rifle is a el cheapo Ruger Mk-II Varmit/Target model, that I bought back in 1994... I have sent many rounds through it's 26 inch stainless semi heavy bbl... probably over 2000.. The Barrel is probably burned out (throat).
It has a Leupold I bought at the same time, just a 6.5-20x50 AO with 1 inch tube..
I prep my brass...

I have only shot 3 dif bullets out of it's factory 1:10 twist...
Sierra 75 HP's, Nosler 85 BT's, and Berger 115 VLD's...
the 75's will yield me around .75 MOA avg, the 85's will depend on how much velocity... at 3705 fps, they shoot about 1 inch at 100, and 4-5 inches at 300 yrds...
at 3400 fps the 85's shoot about 0.60 to 0.75 inch at 100 and about 2.5 to 2.8 inch at 300.
the 115 VLD Bergers shoot about 1/2 inch (some are 0.75, some down to 0.18) at 100 yrds, and about 1.5 to 2 inch at 300 yrds.
How good I shoot depends on how long I let the barrel cool down... I think I have a bad barrel... I let it cool down 5 min between shots, and it's a 1/2 moa gun, let it cool down 1 min, and it's a 1 moa gun...
Thats 3 shot groups, not 5.. but I have shot 5 shots into .74 inch while waiting around 3 min between shots on a hot day, probably would have donw better if I let it cool down more, but that is just a thought.

I hunt Coyotes, and do not get out much (home improvment eating my time) this past 2 yrs... so have yet to field test the VLD on game.. But the accurcy results are REAL LIFE.. They shoot better than any bullet I shoot... I seat them just touching the lands... that is why I don't load em up to 3200 fps with more powder and pressure..
Walt Berger told (e-mail) me they shoot better touching or into the lands..

I think the 1:10 twist is plenty for the VLD as long as you drive em fast enough...
I use 53.0 of R-22, around 3100 fps.
Thats Facts!

In my opinion!
I like the 25 bores, not as good bullet selection as the 24 and 26 bores, it's a good compromise..
the 24's seem to lack enough bullet weight to take big game reliably without going into really fast twist, huge overbore un-effcient cases.. the 26's are more efficient, but you need to have a huge magnum case to drive those 129-140's to flat tagectory, that requires a bodybuilderto carry the heavy gun with a huge accurcy effecting brake..
the 25-06 can plow a 115 grn .522 BC bullet at 3100-3200 fps out of a 1:10 twist without a huge heavy gun or brake to save recoil... thats
it's probably the happy medium of the 24 and 26 bore, that is much over seen..

Also, don't worry about if if you can not shoot 1/2 MOA at 400-500 yards..
No man on this earth is strong enough to carry a heavy sturdy 1000-3000 lb bench into the hunting fields so he can get his 1/2 moa.. along with his sandbags, and heavy front pedistal and all that...
a 1 inch bench gun vs a 1/2 inch bench gun out in the field is pretty close to being even.. human movement/error can add enough to even them out in the field.

I have a few portable bench setups, that work great, but do not compare to a permenent concrete bench.. my 2 cents

Scott

 

[lynn]

The 115 bergers shoot best out of a 10 twist rate in my experience and i see no reason the 25-06 is any different as far as accuracy is concerned than any other cartridge based on the 06 case.I personaly prefer the 117 spbt from Sierra due to its very high bc number compared to there other 25 cal bullets as its the highest they offer plus it generaly shoots better in my guns.Dan Hackett used his 25-06 with the 110 Fowlers to bring home several F-Class plaques so the accuracy potential isn't a concern.I just took a California blacktail at 533 yards using the Sierra 117's and 50.5 gr of RE22 with one shot.I was using an ice chest with a roll of brawny paper towels for a front rest as the weeds kept me from going prone.Two years ago the same combination took a little bit bigger buck at 800 yards.I would not recommend pushing a 6/284 to 3550 fps using 105-108 gr bullets especialy if your looking for consistant 1/2 moa accuracy.The sweetspot seems to fall between 3420-3450 fps and alot of guns in this caliber seem to prefer 3200 fps.Randy Dierks from Action Gun Works set the standard in the 6/284 at Raton a couple years back and he was shooting 107's at 3430 fps.That record still stands in the NBRSA 1000 yard records.The berger bullets in my experience tend to explode due to the thin jackets as has already been posted plus they tend to be harder to tune than the Sierras in my experience but if your gun likes them shoot them.
Lynn

 

[Fiftydriver]

Lynn,

Your comment about the 117 gr Sierra SPBT having a very high B.C. compared to the other 25 caliber bullets.

Sierra list the 117 gr SPBT having a B.C. of .410. I agree this is better then the other Sierra 25 caliber bullets but it is roughly the same as the 100 gr Ballsitic Tip that I have tested just shy of .400 out of my 25-06 loaded to 3450 fps.

The 115 gr Ballistic Tip has a much higher B.C. then the 117 gr Sierra and the 115 gr Berger is higher yet.

This is where the problem lies in my mind. Even though the 117 gr Sierra is a heavier bullet, it is not a longer bullet then the 115 gr Ballistic Tip or Berger bullets.

It is bullet length that requires faster twist to stabilize, not bullet weight.

I have yet to see a factory 25-06 come into the shop that would average at or less then 1/2 moa with the 115 gr Ballistic Tip or 115 gr Berger.

I have seen a host of them accurately shoot the 117 gr Sierra and Hornady SPBT pills because they are shorter bullets.

As far as the 6mm-284 goes, I was driving a coated 107 gr Sierra to an honest 3600 fps from the Lilja 3 groove, 1-8", 30" barrel.

Groups at 500 yards were never over 1/3 moa for three shots and it has shot more 1/5 moa groups then I will admit for fear of being called a liar.

Still this was a hot load, primer pockets were loosening after 5 firings ao I dropped the load down a full grain which averages 3545 fps with the same group size.

In fact, with the 107 gr Sierra, I was getting basically the same group size at 500 yards from 3100 fps up to the top 3600 fps.

With the Hornady and Berger bullets, accuracy failed at 3250 fps with each.

For a comp rifle I would not recommend this level of load either but my rifle is a hunting rifle for extreme range rock chuck hunting where it may get 100 rounds fired a season.

At that rate, even with the high pressure loads, this rifle will probably be serving me well ten years from now.

Good Shooting!!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[brianwinzor]

Fifty Driver,

I also agree with your comments about the comparison of the Sierra 117 SPBT and Nosler 115BT. The Sierra 117 grain bullet measures about 1.120 inches in length, and the Nosler 115 grain BT measures about 1.204 inches, so its bc of .453 is obviously going to be considerably more than that of the Sierra.

Over the last 8 years I have been using the Nosler 100 grain BT at about 3,550 fps in my two 25/06AI's with terrific success on medium game (feral goats, pigs, roos, emus, deer, etc) in Australia.

Due to my curiosity, I recently started testing the Nosler 115 BT, in my custom 25/06 AI (Sako L61R Action, Shilen 24 inch SS barrel), and found that the accuracy seems to be marginally better than what I achieved with the Nosler 100 BT. On my first day of testing, using a slightly compressed load of 63.0 grains of H1000, I achieved 3,256 fps, and consecutive groups measuring .420 inches at 100 yards, and then .800 inches and .480 inches (.192moa)at 250 yards when sighting in. Obviously I will fire further groups to verify this acuracy, and am looking forward to see how they perform on game in the field.

Due to the .522 bc of the Berger 115, I also have been tempted to try it, but my limited experience with 70 grain VLD'S Bergers in my .224 Clark, and .22/250 AI, and 30 grain HP in my .17/222 mag imp, have had them coming apart when the velocity reaches a certain level, so I will use the Nosler 115 BT for while before trying them.

I noted that you achieved 3,450 fps with the 100 grain bullet in your 25/06, and am curious about the barrel length and what load you where using, as you don't often see velocities exceeding 3,400 fps. I only got 3,377 fps(58.0 grains WW785) in rifle 1, and 3,342 fps (59.0 grains Viht165)in rifle 2 prior to both having their barrels set back and rechambered to the Ackley improved case.

The benefits of standard v AI chamber is a hotly debated topic, but I have had many positive experiences. For the record the results in my 2 current rifles in the same barrel using the Nosler 100 grain BT are:
25/06
Rifle 1 -Sako L61R Sporter with Sako barrel
Remington cases, capacity 65.5 grains
55.0 grains IMR 4831 - 3220 fps
56.0 grains IMR 4831 - 3269 fps
56.5 grains IMR 4831 - 3324 fps (Max)

25/06
Rifle 2 -Sako L61R Act.Shilen 24 inch barrel
Winchester cases, capacity 67.6 grains
57.0 grains Viht 165 - 3205 fps
58.0 grains Viht 165 - 3265 fps
59.0 grains Viht 165 - 3342 fps (Max)

25/06 AI
Rifle 1- Remington FF cases 71.2 grains
58.0 grains - IMR 4831 - 3432 fps
59.0 grains - IMR 4831 - 3494 fps
60.0 grains - IM4 4831 - 3565 fps (Max)

25/06 AI
Rifle 2 - Winchester FF cases 71.1 grains
61.0 grains Viht 165 - 3472 fps
62.0 grains Viht 165 - 3547 fps
63.0 grains Viht 165 - 3591 fps (Max)
Regards, Brian.

 

[LB]

You didn't ask me Brian, but I can give you a little more data on my current 25'06AI barrel. I'm using 57.0 grains of R-22, (tight neck) of course, in a 28.5" barrel, 100 grain Nosler BT. The MV is around 3650 out of a Hart barrel.

Previous powders, previous barrels were W760 and H4831, neither of which netted much over 3200fps.

I have an interesting small varmint load for ranges under 400 yards. 57.0 grains of #2700 and the 75 grain V-Max. This is by far my most accurate load, (.250") although I have no interest in replicating multiple times for an aggregate on paper, being more interested in sustained barrel life. MV is 4,000fps through a 35P.

 

[Donham]

I have yet to see a factory 25-06 come into the shop that would average at or less then 1/2 moa with the 115 gr Ballistic Tip or 115 gr Berger.
Quote: by Fiftydriver
____________________________________________

I am not bragging on my gun, as it's very picky, and the barrel warps with heat/shots..

But I can get under 1/2 MOA from my 25-06 Ruger with the 115 VLD Bergers...
I live in Indiana, and invite you to come watch...or anyone else.

Like I said in the post above, the catch is I have to let the barrel cool down 5 or more minutes between shots... That is why I do mostly 3 shot groups..

My gun is stock factory except I glass beded it when I got it, and I added 3 lbs of (hot) lead to stock/forearm to help recoil and guns also shoots better..
I have also use polish compound paste through the barrel to smoth grove flaws out..

The gun is a varmit semi heavy barrle, but nothing special.... as a matter of fact it doesn't shoot worth a crap with much of anything.... I used to get good groups with 75's and 85's, but they seem to lack now... throat is probably eroded after over 2000 rnds of full power loads...
Yet, it likes the Big 0.522 BC 115 VLD Bergers.... with the load I use, it may just be fast enough to stablize them...

I do not totally dissagree with you, If I was to order a 25-06 barrel to shoot the 115 VLD's I opt to get a 1:9 or 1:8, to be on the safe side...

I only use my gun for coyotes, fox, crows or other varmits, it's not a big game gun... I really do not care for the big bullets much, I'd rather have a 25-06 that can shoot 85 BT at 3600-3700 fps accuratly...

I only loaded up the Bergers, as I planed to try ultra long range coyote shooting, and the down range velocity for the bergers was superior to any other bullets, say 600-1000 yards..
at 1000 yards, most light skined varmit bullets are not going to be going fast enough to expand, so all the velocity you can save for shocking effect is a must... and the 115 Very Low Drag Bergers deliver 357 magnum muzzle power at that range, not bad..

I think Lost River makes a .257 cal 90 grn bullet with a BC of .490, but they are expensive, 1 $Buck$ a bullet or more.. yikes!

scott

 

[Fiftydriver]

Brian Winzor,

I have hear and talked with shooters that have 25-06 rifles that shoot these 115 gr tipped bullets very well, I just have not witnessed it with the ones tha tcome through my shop.

Thow a 100 gr Ballistic Tip in them and they generally run 3/4 moa or better from factory rifles.

I load 58.0 gr Rl-22 over a CCI-200 and a coated 100 gr Ballistic Tip out of my Ruger M77MkII with a 24" barrel.

I started load developement with several different bullets and powders and this rifle will only shoot the 100 gr B.Tip with any results at all.

With this bullet and powder it is the most accurate factory sporter I have ever owned. In its prime it would average 3/8 moa groups at an average velocity of 3455 fps fro 10 shots.

This was not a maxed out load either in this rifle, in fact I loaded it to 3500 fps and I was still getting 4 firings per case. At 3455 fps I get 5-6 firings before the primer pockets loosen up. For a big game rifle I am plenty satisfied with this case life.

I find it interesting that your velocities are as low as they are. Everyone I know here in Montana that is using the 25-06 is getting at least 3400 fps with the 100 gr bullets with ease.

The 25-06 rifles I have built for customers are running solid 3600 fps velocities with the 100 gr pills out of 26" barrels at very desent pressures it seems, case life is +5 firings at least.

I guess I must clarify what I consider fine accuracy with regards to teh 115 gr bullets. I have shot several rifles that would hold 3/4 to 1 moa groups but to a custom riflesmith that is accuracy minded, this is pretty poor accuracy.

Good Shooting!!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Fiftydriver]

LB,

Your rifle is a prime example of what a custom chamber will produce over a factory chamber.

I use 58.0 gr Rl-22 in my standard factory 25-06 loaded with the 100 gr B. Tip at a velocity of 3455 fps.

YOu use one grain less of the same powder with the same bullet weight, in a larger volume case and get 3650 fps.

Yes you have a 4.5" longer barrel but there is no replacement for a match quality tight throated chamber.

My 25-06 Ruger is getting very tired but it has served me so well over the years I hate to tear her down but a new 27" Lilja with a 3 groove and chambered with the 25-06 AI reamer I had custom built using my neck/throat system will be a great performer.

Guess its time to give the old girl some new legs.

Good Shooting!!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[brianwinzor]

Fifty Driver, Thanks for the information. I would have to agree that 3455 fps and 3/8 inch accuracy (10 shot group) from 58.0 grains Re 22 from a standard 24 inch barrel is outstanding accuracy,let alone an impressive velocity. I don't in anyway doubt your results, but am trying to reconcile the reasons for the substantial difference in velocities between your rifle and mine.

Could some of the difference be related to to the altitude, as I do my testing at a location in South Australia which is about 100 feet above sea level, and I note from my old Atlas that about 85% of Montana is 1,000 metres (3300 feet or higher).

MY Rifle 1 referred to above, was purchased as a new Sako 25/06 sporter with 24 inch barrel in 1987. I note from my chronograph records of 7/6/1987 that I did achieve 3400+ fps, using 59.0 grains WW 785, (a powder which has a similar burning rate to Reloader 22).

Ironically this was my last group fired prior to having it rechambered to the AI version. At this stage I had fired about 200 shots (mostly testing). However, my notes from that day (23C) suggest that it was probably just above maximum pressure. My records for that day;
Remington cases, Remington 91/2 primer, Nosler 100 grain SPBT
58.5 grains WW785 - 3373 fps (Max)
59.0 grains WW785 - 4118 fps (Above Max)

On the same day using Remington cases, Remington 91/2 primer and Nosler 120 grain SPBT, I achieved:
55.5 grains H4831 - 3018 fps
56.0 grains H4831 - 3038 fps
56.5 grains H4831 - 3071 fps (Max)

56.0 grains WW 785 - 3163 fps (Max)
56.5 grains WW 785 - 3175 fps (Above Max)

Most of the better groups in this rifle were between 0.5 and 0.75 moa, although several sub 0.5 groups were obtained.

My rifle 2, was custom built 25/06 in 1982 on a Sako L61R action, Shilen SS 24 inch barrel, and Fajen walnut stock.

It was stolen prior to me firing a shot, and recovered by South Australian police from a drug dealer who used it in an armed hold up last year, and returned to me still unfired. This rifle was then used for about 100 shots prior to the same gunsmith rechambering to the AI version.

I note that this rifle seems to achieve maximum pressure with 1 grain less powder than the Sako Sporter. It has what I consider standard neck, as the neck on loaded cases are .285 and those on fired cases are .291.

However there is no doubt that the accuracy with this Shilen SS barrel is noticeably better (as you expect) than that of the Sako barrel. I have already fired numerous sub 0.5 moa groups with this rifle using both the Nosler 100 and 115 grain Ballistic tips, which I consider excellent for a hunting rifle. Regards, Brian.