“Your groups are too small” vs barrel life

If it won't shoot sub moa with 2 shots.....3 ain't gonna make it better.
When I'm starting out with INITIAL load work...this is my starting point. 2 shot groups to get an idea of pressure, powder charge and group size.
If I'm working up a series, and none in the series show promise with 2 shots...I don't need to re-test with 3 shots. I need to change a variable.
If pressure is good, and speed is good...I'll change seating depth or crimp (adjust neck tension) and re-test with 2 shots toward the upper end of the velocity goal.
 
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This is similar to what I do. I rarely crimp though. Only sometimes on bullets that have a groove. I've had that help es/ds but never accuracy? Interesting
 
What I find telling from Keith Glasscock's video is that his highly specialized/customized F-class rifle is not the 0.175 MOA shooter you would assign from his 3 shot group, but is actually a 0.761 MOA shooter based on his 33 shots of that load. That should tell us something about our hunting rigs and our over estimation of their true accuracy.
 
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It is amazing what a good F-Class shooter can do at 1000 yards. In a three relay match, that means sixty record shots and many times they pull pit duty or have to score between their next relay, so no time for cleaning or playing or fussing with seating bullets in between. So it represents pre loaded ammo. Here was a card shot in a match up in Alaska that was shared on the FB page the other day. It is an exceptional example.

600-42X means he was inside the X ring 70% of the shots. Some beautiful shooting to say the least, and shows what is possible when the planets are aligned.

Now it would be interesting to hear what John says the load/barrel will do on the next match, or if it falls completely out of tune.

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ETA: folks have asked what the target dimensions are for F-Class at 1000 yards, for example the 10 ring is basically 10" and the X-ring is 5"
 
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That took less time than I thought it would! The internet has made it sound like the only good rifles are .25 moa. I get sick of hearing how "My 6.5lb all in hunting rifle shoots .5 moa all day at 1000y". If this was true, these rifles would be winning 1000y bench rest competitions against 20lb rifles. It simply isn't true. A true 1 moa hunting rifle should never be gotten rid of. I think the really good, I mean really good, hunting rifles that are .5 moa, still pitch one out to 1moa here and there. "Called shot. That was me, not my rifle."

In my small statistical load development and long range validation, I want to see solid sub moa accuracy. I totally agree with the Hornady guys that loading in .2gr increments is statistically inconsequential. Unless shooting something like a 17 Hornet I rarely make powder adjustments less than one grain. The smallest that I ever make is .5gr. When I load develop I shoot one shot 1gr increments all fired at the same dot. If the rifle likes what we are using it will usually show pretty close to an moa target, even though we may have increased 200fps to 300fps in the ladder. If the group in the ladder is all over the place, I switch to a different powder. I have seen changing primers take a rifle from 2.5 moa to .5 moa. Wouldn't think it possible had I not seen it. Still too small a statistical sample to prove but it held up at long range.

I think if guys actually listen to the Hornady podcast, they could save the amount of powder, primers, and bullets they shoot to develop a load, in a third. They aren't telling you need to shoot hundreds and hundreds of shots to develop a load. They are telling you not to do that, because unless you do, the small changes that you are making are statistically unproven and likely will not change anything. It might make you more confident, which is priceless.

I could sell a lot more bullets if I told guys to load in .5gr increments in 5 shot groups in a ladder up to pressure. Then take the best group and work up and down from there in .2gr increments to find the best group. Then take that best group and work the seating depth in 2 thou increments in 5 shot groups to find the best group. If a guy has done this he has gone through hundreds of bullets and they are all statistically inconsequential. When you are making these minute changes you would have to shoot 30-50 shots at each change to prove it to be actually better. They are saying that if you actually shot 30-50 shots at each minute change it would prove to be not different.

The guys that take offense to the Hornady guys are the guys that take hundreds of shots to develop a load. Now Hornady comes along and tells them that they have been wasting their time and money and it offends them.

My method to load develop usually takes less than 20 shots, including zeroing and confirming drops. Sometimes we get that rifle that is picky and we have to try several powders to find what it likes. There have been a few that have taken us 70 shots to find the combo but I never tinker a rifle into a good load.
I'm not a hunter but shoot and reload. I come here out of interest and to pick up knowledge so when I encounter hunters during my RSO duties I'm not left in the dark.

I was writing an epistle but when I saw this post it went the delete route. Your take is exactly what I took from a number of their podcast. Nowhere did they recommend 30 shot groups. One thing I think the Hornady guys could do is show more of their data and also show how to analyze their test data.

Someone also brought in Keith Glasscock of Winning in the Wind. He is an accomplished shooter and does an excellent job of explaining things including issues related to reloading. There is also a series on statistics on The Precision Rifle Blog that everyone, especially those who use chronographs, should read.

 
I'm not a hunter but shoot and reload. I come here out of interest and to pick up knowledge so when I encounter hunters during my RSO duties I'm not left in the dark.

I was writing an epistle but when I saw this post it went the delete route. Your take is exactly what I took from a number of their podcast. Nowhere did they recommend 30 shot groups. One thing I think the Hornady guys could do is show more of their data and also show how to analyze their test data.

Someone also brought in Keith Glasscock of Winning in the Wind. He is an accomplished shooter and does an excellent job of explaining things including issues related to reloading. There is also a series on statistics on The Precision Rifle Blog that everyone, especially those who use chronographs, should read.

Good read for sure!
 
It is amazing what a good F-Class shooter can do at 1000 yards. In a three relay match, that means sixty record shots and many times they pull pit duty or have to score between their next relay, so no time for cleaning or playing or fussing with seating bullets in between. So it represents pre loaded ammo. Here was a card shot in a match up in Alaska that was shared on the FB page the other day. It is an exceptional example.

600-42X means he was inside the X ring 70% of the shots. Some beautiful shooting to say the least, and shows what is possible when the planets are aligned.

Now it would be interesting to hear what John says the load/barrel will do on the next match, or if it falls completely out of tune.

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ETA: folks have asked what the target dimensions are for F-Class at 1000 yards, for example the 10 ring is basically 10" and the X-ring is 5"
Well under MOA at 1000 yds. Be interesting to see what he thinks the same number of shots would be at 100 yards. Under .3 MOA?
 
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