FFP scope?

akmtnhnt said:

Even on those western hunts where lets say you're shooting at pronghorn at 800y... are they doing it in 25-50mph of wind? I don't see how the prs scopes are useful at all at any range anywhere for hunting.
Also with the mega zoom, unless they're shooting a 10lb 223, it's about impossible to spot your own shots. If you can't do that in a hunting situation, you have the wrong combo of everything.

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Spotting your own shots

akmtnhnt said:

A gamer is someone that shoots in competition with made up arbitrary conditions. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just miles from hunting realities. Because it's so popular, or at least the scope manufacturers cater almost entirely to it, those conditions drive what is designed for. Which is extreme precision. Which is great. The problem is it's at the cost of far more useful things. Like being able to see the reticle. Or low light.

The issue is the reticles are all useless on low magnification because they're designing for things that do not exist in hunting. If they did, they could have the reticle big enough close enough to the center to use it at the lowest magnification.

In order to actually need the reticles offered, the conditions have to be quite terrible. So terrible that the vast majority of hunters couldn't possibly pull off the shot. And we can see that in reality vs the ultra super snipers people are on forums vs the you tube challenges where people absolutely cannot make a lot easier shot than that reticle would allow for with full on custom ultra heavy guns and all the time in the world.

That all said, I think you're not understanding my complaints. I like FFP. I like MRAD. No one makes one worth a crap for hunting.

In my example, I chose a pretty terrible combo for anything long range, but it's a very common load for a lot of hunters. If I chose something more appropriate for long range like a 6.5prc and a 147eldm, in a 30mph wind 5mils is at 1100yards.
If the animal is moving at a brisk walk(5mph), that's a fine moving shot, 5 mils is past 2000y.
Let's put them together, a very reasonable 10mph wind and a 5mph moving target. You're still not to 5mils until 1000y. I just can't see very many hunters capable of that shot. There are some, but it would not be enough people to sell enough scopes to recover 10mins of the r&d on it, let alone make any money.

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I think that it's time to call a TIME OUT here. akmtnhnt, you have mede your point and things are now getting argumentative which is not what all of us come her for. We talk and learn from each other, ask questions and ask opinions. We are all aware of the fact you don't like modern scopes, you much prefer MRAD scopes and argue about moving targets. That is your preference, so be it. If you want a scope built to your specifications simply contact any of the scope makers, tell them what it is you want and have them build you a custom scope, just be ready to foot the bill because it is not going to be cheap, but it will be exactly what you think you want. So quit complainin, nobody really cares that you don't like the current scope offerings. I could go on and on, but what is the point?

If I were you I would take a look through some scopes at a decent sport shop, find what works for you be it FFP versus SFP, the type of reticle thats really looks good for you the power range and most of all what is simple and works for you.

As you can see this is all about you and what you will find that works. This thread is going every which way and thats because we all have personal preferences and especially different demands.

For me everything thing is FFP, 5-25 to 6-36 magnification and Mils and they work great for everything I need to get done.

JH

I did not read every comment, but just wanted to say where FFP comes into being great over SFP is the ability for holdover to be set at any power magnification. With SFP, you have to remember to set it at the manufacturer power setting, usually max power to use holdover for wind or elevation. In the heat of the shot, you have to remember this when using SFP. Me, I rather not have to think about if I am on the correct Magnification when looking at shooting a buck of a lifetime at 800yds.

dfanonymous said:

I think this is more a user error kind of thing combined with a "too busy for me" preference. Conflating what you want with what you need.

The gamer scopes are literally just military scopes that are used to "hunt" people. They call us HOGs on the Marine side. I'll let you google that.

if you are that close that your in 3 to 4 power, just click on the illumination and use the cross hair. It's a max PBR shot. No reticle really needed.

Sure, hunters suck, at making multiple shots on a target at range. But if I bring up the PRS then it's a "gamer thing." Despite how much it translates to real world shooting. How often are you shooting 5 times at a stationary deer at 2 difference distance?

The backfire YouTube video was dumb. Then when an actual shooter like Eric Cortina said he would do it, it never happened. Backfire has made a few dumb videos.

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Thank you for your service sir.

PopNFresh said:

I've avoided this thread like the plague because we're talking about personal preferences across a hunting spectrum that could very well be international but I'm gonna put my phallus in this hornet's nest and run away.

the majority of scopes on the market today don't do things because they're useful, they do them because they sell. And most people that purchase them don't do so because they need the features but because other people or salesmen have put it out there that this is what's needed.

if the market was driven by the small subset of people who practice and hunt frequently, there would be too many variables to make everyone happy or have much of an economy of scale because of so many different requirements whether it's the aging eyes folks, the point blank brush jumpers, the mile long 40 knot wind crew, whatever. Just look at this thread, nobody's going to be able to make all you people completely happy.

but I bet that guy behind the sales counter can sell scopes to folks with a line about "you've got enough reticule to shoot in a 50mph tempest out to 1200 yards" and he'll sell more of them to people who will only use them on a sub 300yd rifle range than he'll have people laugh in his face and walk out of the place.

tl:dr the market is driven by what sells not what's effective

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Avoiding is not what this website is all about. It is a gathering point for people with similar wishes and desires to get together and talk about things that they feel are important, at least to them. Actually, after some 50+ years shooting and hunting I find that scopes on the market today are what a well versed hunter needs and can use.

I also find that most hunters are afraid to go beyond the rifle they have and have used for generations. They are actually afraid of the new calibers and scopes simply because they don't understand them and don't want to take the time to learn about how to use the new technology, thus if they buy a new scope for example, they will not take the time to learn about the new features.

You can blame the guy behind the gun counter. Actually, I was the, "Gal," behind the gun counter for many years. I made it a point to familiarize myself with all the new scopes so I could talk intelligently about what the scopes had to offer. Nobody wanted to listen, they had their minds made up and what does a, "GIRL," know about scopes anyway. People who came in looking for a new scope, for the most part already had their minds made up in the parking lot and had no interest in really learning about which scope would do what they wanted it to, just that the glass was good and it didn't cost too much and their buddy thought it was OK.

Blame the people behind the counter if you must, but take a look at the consumer who is blind to new features, doesn't know how to use them and has their minds made up before walking into the store and dont want to listen to anything else. What is old is familiar, what is new is scary and I really don't want to take the time to learn any new stuff.

akmtnhnt said:

Even on those western hunts where lets say you're shooting at pronghorn at 800y... are they doing it in 25-50mph of wind? I don't see how the prs scopes are useful at all at any range anywhere for hunting.
Also with the mega zoom, unless they're shooting a 10lb 223, it's about impossible to spot your own shots. If you can't do that in a hunting situation, you have the wrong combo of everything.

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Don't think they were using the windage holds, but we're using 5-25 ffp scopes. One guy said he lived in 12x-18x land for everything another said he was a 10-20 guy.

We did a predator hunt and an antelope hunt, they had scouted the antelope and had a pretty good idea where they were moving. We hiked in and got setup in the pathway, moving over ridges in wide open rolling terrain. Predator hunting occurred a few hundred miles away but in a very similar fashion, setup with wide open shooting pathways. Enough time to range and dial, and they were very proficient getting on target quick and making the adjustments.

The second guy was very proficient with his tree reticle, and did a coyote double at a rate of speed I'm not capable of. It was barrel three on that hunting rifle of his own flavor 6.5 saum derivative.

Don't think the prs style would work with a lot of my hunting, but rolling sage on the edge of alfalfa and rim rock on the edge of crop fields it was might impressive.

dfanonymous said:

I think we are on the same page with magnification. Again. I have a technical background.

I only use about 10-12x at 1000 and just enough magnification for seeing the target at close. I leave that ambiguous because some scopes down to 3 power and some as low as 7 power. I agree that for 600 4-7 power is great.

I mean I think that there aren't as many 1 moa shooters as people claim.

I also think on average that people suck at wind, and don't have their data down as much as they think. Again though, I think that's a technical and training issue and not a FFP/reticle issue.

People that do proper training do well.

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I'd love to see him do that in a wind that need mils 5mils of hold. 6GT, 105 berger. 36-37mph.

Snowboy said:

Sorry it was only 440 yds and snowing the last time.

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So less than 3 mils of wind.

akmtnhnt said:

So less than 3 mils of wind.

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I just ordered my first ffp scope 5-25 X56. I am over 70 but am looking forward to learning how these differ from the sfp. I will never find a range over 500 yards around here but I just want to have some fun. Keep the advice coming please.

akmtnhnt said:

I'd love to see him do that in a wind that need mils 5mils of hold. 6GT, 105 berger. 36-37mph.

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People do. That's basicly equivalent to this.


Mistakes and all 6 gt


Easy at 600

Competition vs military kind of

And no scope can but people do it
In this case it was something like 2000y with a .308.

if people are filming themselves doing it, image how many of us are not….i know when I'm hunting, and it's 30 mph in Wyoming, I don't stop and think about how much of a prime opportunity it is to film.

When I began longer range hunting, there weren't a lot of scopes and rangefinders available that had either the capability, or affordable/available to the pubic. My early scopes were SFP, Leupold Mark 4's that had MOA turrets and a MIL based reticle. While many thought if this configuration as an "abortion", found it useful for getting quite fast/accurate MIL/reticle based ranges out to 500/600 yards on deer sized game, while being able to adjust for long range elevation and windage using the familiar MOA system I did learn to understand "both" MOA and MILs. The issue was that reticle use was limited to a specific magnification setting, a characteristic of the SFP scope. When capable range finders became available, I found myself using SFP/MOA scopes, generally in the 5-20x magnification range for LRH..and had good success….
When PRS came on the scene I did become immersed in the sport. Being predominantly a hunter, I found PRS to be a great way to exercise skills in the off season that could often be applied to LRH. For PRS, it was obvious that the soon popular FFP/MIL-based scopes produced offered many efficiency advantages based on the accuracy/time based requirements of the sport…And, these could be relevant in LRH. It was at this point that I switched over to FFP/Mil based scopes for LRH. The new, high end offerings in these scope had superb glass, mechanicals, controls, and reliability. For hunting, I chose to use these FFP/Mil scopes that are offered in lighter, compact size, simple, less cluttered reticles that are weighted and balanced for fast and precise use on game from 100-1000+ yards. My preferred power range is 4x20. The only disadvantage is that these Teir 1 scopes can cost as much, or more then the rifle. I find no disadvantages with this de-up for my use.
One point…I found that using the FFP scopes used for hunting produced PRS score equal or often better for me then the typical, more feature rich scopes I used for PRS…..
Below: My set up with a ZCO 420 that I have been using for the last few years…I generally keep my carry setting at 8x in the areas I hunt for short/midrange. No problem resolving/placing shots on coyotes at 1200+ yards at 20x.

This argument will continue on and on. The truth is that the vast majority can't tell you difference between FFP or SFP, many can't explain the difference between Mils, MRAD, and MOA.
Once you have a functional knowledge of FFP it makes a ton of sense. MOA vs Mils or MRAD doesn't matter as much to me, understanding your adjustments is what's important.
As for the reticle disappearing at low mag it isn't an issue either if your scope is matched to your use. If the vast majority of your needs include close shot capabilities a starting magnification that is low makes way more sense. With illumination on, the reticle center is obvious even if the actual lines aren't visible, and you don't need them if you're within a mpbr. Most are using way to much magnification IMHO. Field of view is limited, spotting your hit in recoil is harder, and watching the reaction of the target is harder due to the limited field of view.

My ffp/mil exposure came in the military. Prior to, I had only used sfp. I still have sfp scopes on a few rifles and zero them with consideration for MPBR.
My preferred choice for hunting is an illuminated 3-12x or 3-15x ffp, and it's enough for me to shoot targets way past where I generally shoot at game.

Kmccord said:

I did not read every comment, but just wanted to say where FFP comes into being great over SFP is the ability for holdover to be set at any power magnification. With SFP, you have to remember to set it at the manufacturer power setting, usually max power to use holdover for wind or elevation. In the heat of the shot, you have to remember this when using SFP. Me, I rather not have to think about if I am on the correct Magnification when looking at shooting a buck of a lifetime at 800yds.

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I guess that's why we are all different lol. I think opposite to this. I'm more worried about that dark close shot that happens out of nowhere. I'm 61 and have had this happen way more in my hunting life than a 800yds shot (which has been never) 577yds my longest. And the few long shots i have taken I have had time to think. So, remembering to turn the scope to right power has not been a problem. But if I have a close out of nowhere fast encounter It seems would likely be a much more likely problem and time limited to remember turn on illumination and did I turn down power so I can even find him. Having said that. I went to gun shop yesterday evening late. he had a mark 4 HD 4.5x18 @61 my eyes did NOT like what I was seeing until around 12 power. I never hunt on that high of a power unless a long shot comes which for me have been far fewer than close ones. the scope he had was not illuminated. We went outside right after sun set but it was still plenty of shooting light and 12 power was about where I could see to shoot without illumination. If I lived or hunted in area where most shots would be long maybe i would get one. But I see far more problems gained than solved for me and my hunting. I'll stick to SFP. Thanks for all your responses.

I guess you have your mind made up, no sense in buying an FFP with your situations.