A Serious Question

Teri Anne said:

Well there is the fact that I am a blonde, but not a dumb one. I shall clarify your confusion by letting you know that I would be using my Remington 700, 338 Win Mag which shoots clover leaf for smaller groups at 100 yards. If I was going big bear hunting. Just a minor point, what, difference does it matter if the client muffs the shot shooting a 6.8 Western or a big magnum? A muffed shot is a muffed shot?

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I never, and would never, suggest that you're a "dumb blond"…..I've read many of your posts.

But, to clarify my comment, there are varying degrees of "muffed shots"! Some can make the animal "very sick" but still somewhat mobile. Some "muffed shots" can induce a huge adrenaline rush, with the very bad "muffed shot" having zero affect on the animals mobility……only exponentially increasing it's poor attitude!

Oh, a thumbs up on choosing your .338 WM, it's a great cartridge….. my wife loves hers! But, her's doesn't do "clover leafs" …..but, seems to be pretty effective for her out a bit beyond 400 yrds. memtb

fseaman said:

Not a PP at all.

I prefer the Weatherby version of the Howa 1500. Yes, I simp Weatherby. All stocks fit both. I have not looked at Houge offerings in 5 years or so.

L 4.5-14 would be a fine scope for the criteria. My hunting Weatherbys wear them.

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Excellent stock for the price is MDT FIELD STOCK.... unbelievable value

eastbank said:

my learning curve came from shooting two kimbers, a montana and a hunter. a 257 roberts and a 7mm08, not big kickers, but very fussy what you fed them and how you held them.

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I always described those rifles as (Twitchy). If you can be very, very calm they shoot well, if you're not, bad JUJU.

memtb said:

I know that it's hard to believe that I "can" be serious. This will possibly stir-up some large differences of opinion…..hopefully no hard feelings among any!

Obviously, we all want the best accuracy that be had …..within reason! My qualification list should explain.

The question……What should the maximum, repeatable group size be @ 100 yards for this rifle/cartridge/hunter?

First a few qualifiers:

* The rifle used will be of a very practical hunting carry weight….for normal humans. Assuming, some elevation and steep country and up to several miles per day on foot. I'm placing that weight at 9 pounds….scoped, loaded, slung.

* The rifle will not be a "full-blown" custom job…..it can be a factory rifle or semi-custom that is affordable by the average hunter/shooter that may have a family, bills, ect.

This may help the potential LRH what his/her expectations should be!

* The ammunition can be factory or hand loads

* 600 yards will be the maximum yardage that this will be used on a game animal

Let the debate begin! Thanks in advance memtb

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For the rifle I'd give serious consideration to a Tikka T3x Lite in a 7mm Rem mag. Tikkas are extremely accurate and weight friendly.

Web1350 said:

For the rifle I'd give serious consideration to a Tikka T3x Lite in a 7mm Rem mag. Tikkas are extremely accurate and weight friendly.

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The answer to the question pertaining to what the maximum repeatable group size be @ 100 yards, a lot of that depends on the individuals abilities and how well the rifle/ammo combination shoots. In my case it is less than 1 MOA. There are others in our hunting party who are happy with a 3 inch group at 100. Another question when considering this is, "How far is the usual shooting distance where you are hunting. If where you hunt the usual range that you shoot at is 50 yards it means that your group size at the usual distance is 1.5 inches. Conversely if you are hunting where the average shot is 300 yards it converts to a 9 inch group. 9 inches can cause a miss on a deer size target. As mentioned above, I like to know that the rifle places the bullet as close as possible to where I am aiming. It also means that if I miss, it's my fault, not the rifle.

So…I'll jump in here.

Here's my .308 win at 600 yards.

Here's the cow elk I shot at…600 yards this year.

It's slightly overweight though.

Rosebud said:

It depends on how deep you're pockets are, this rifle showed up at my place three days ago. I'm waiting for the dies to arrive to begin loading.
No, it isn't mine! A well funded friend bought it and wants me to break it in and work up a load using124 Hammer Hunters.
6.5 PRC M48 Nosler, carbon barrel, Zeiss Victory, no idea who makes the suppressor. By my best guess around $9000.00 plus.
It will be fun to play with, and maybe not involve the county police for him to get it back.

He did this snack dab in the middle of the rut here. Good thing he's not in a rush to get it back.
Sorry for the dark photos, its pouring rain here. But if you're interested in this rifle go to Noslers website. If I'm able I'll post the results of this endeavor so long as it doesn't cut into any hunting time.

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Vihtavouri N560 at 3422 fps is my 124 gr hammer 6.5 PRC load . You can load 5 rounds and have your load.

Hard rock said:

Vihtavouri N560 at 3422 fps is my 124 gr hammer 6.5 PRC load . You can load 5 rounds and have your load.

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Thanks, have a second opinion on the powder, no Vihtavouri available here. I can see if he's willing to order some. Are you shooting the same rifle?

No , one is a pre 64 mod 70 with a BARTLEIN 7.75 twist the other is a Curtis AXIOM with a proof research barrel 26 in 1-8 twist both 6.5 PRC the only other powders I have used is N 165 . Reloader 26 might work too . The 124 hammer will develop easy check the burn rates and get as close to N560 as you can that burn rate works well in that cartridge

FireFlyFishing said:

So…I'll jump in here.

Here's my .308 win at 600 yards.
View attachment 618093
Here's the cow elk I shot at…600 yards this year.
View attachment 618094
It's slightly overweight though.
View attachment 618095

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If that is slightly overweight mine is FAT. I don't mind FAT. I rarely tote rifles except when sneaking up on hogs. My blind is generally my f250. But i can get a better rest in the F150. The window profile is much lower and the mirror is the perfect height.

Turpentine21 said:

If that is slightly overweight mine is FAT. I don't mind FAT. I rarely tote rifles except when sneaking up on hogs. My blind is generally my f250. But i can get a better rest in the F150. The window profile is much lower and the mirror is the perfect height.

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Nothing wrong with that.

The rifle pictured when I took that cow was hiked 10.5 miles and close to 5000' vertical. I didn't get back to camp until 0200 the next morning as I shot her in the evening. Needless to say the rifle got heavy...as did the first load down to camp...

FireFlyFishing said:

Nothing wrong with that.

The rifle pictured when I took that cow was hiked 10.5 miles and close to 5000' vertical. I didn't get back to camp until 0200 the next morning as I shot her in the evening. Needless to say the rifle got heavy...as did the first load down to camp...

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With that situation……anything would be considered too heavy! That's a very long, steep hunt for a cow……unless she was a #1 Boone & Crockett cow! memtb

memtb said:

With that situation……anything would be considered too heavy! That's a very long, steep hunt for a cow……unless she was a #1 Boone & Crockett cow! memtb

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Mmm, I'm trying to stay healthy…

I think a 600 yard hunting rifle should be expected to shoot 1/2MOA @ 100 yards, with verification out to your imposed limit of 600.
That means a 3" group at 600 from good conditions. No matter the weight or chambering of the rifle.

Because we all know those perfect conditions at the range and seldom, if ever, present on the mountain. I haven't ever, in 39 years of big game hunting, had a flat comfortable surface to shoot prone, with zero wind, and an animal perfectly broadside and relaxed, allowing for the perfect rock solid set up and zero adrenaline and slow heart rate, while hunting.

You start factoring in winds, weather, live game animals, adrenaline, humping up a mountain with a pounding heart, uncomfortable shooting positions, a makeshift rest, and your accuracy ability just doubled (or would that be halved) or more...minimum.

Too many people are thinking they have to build a 6.5-7lb all-in magnum for mountain hunting. Then can't shoot it well. 9lbs all-in is very doable and helps with a bit of forgiveness. I have very few rifles that are between 8.5 to 9lbs all-in. Nothing lighter than 8lbs with the exception of my .22LR.