dhbikerczar
Well-Known Member
All 3 were complete bullets. They looked as you would expect, mushroomed out in the tip but I remember one of them bent over and moshroomed on just one side and flat on the other.
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Is a 270 WSM an adequate elk round?
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SSG Graybush
Well-Known Member
200 or 2000 #'s?
Idaho Lefty
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Fudge, the Foot pounds of, energy, "Chit" !
We, in my Family, plan on, USING , "good" / KNOWN to "Expand", 130 Grain, Bullets at, 2,000 FPS as, Minimum, to Kill Elk,. Reliably !
And 140 grainers, are,.. Better, Yet !
a Half inch dia, EXPANDED Bullet Hole, thru their Heart / Lungs, pretty much,.. Always,. "Gets it, Done" !
Berger Hunting bullets, Nosler Partitions, AccuBonds, Horn ELD-X's & Interlock's and Sierra GK's HAVE Done this Reliably for Us, for MANY Years!
Never, have Seen ANY of These Bullets "Bounce" off, a Rib from, a .270 !
We, in my Family, plan on, USING , "good" / KNOWN to "Expand", 130 Grain, Bullets at, 2,000 FPS as, Minimum, to Kill Elk,. Reliably !
And 140 grainers, are,.. Better, Yet !
a Half inch dia, EXPANDED Bullet Hole, thru their Heart / Lungs, pretty much,.. Always,. "Gets it, Done" !
Berger Hunting bullets, Nosler Partitions, AccuBonds, Horn ELD-X's & Interlock's and Sierra GK's HAVE Done this Reliably for Us, for MANY Years!
Never, have Seen ANY of These Bullets "Bounce" off, a Rib from, a .270 !
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OG-danimal
Well-Known Member
Ha whoops. 2000
You've got 2 different metrics here. You mention functional velocity of the bullet, which is in fact the only thing that matters, whereas foot-pounds of energy is useless.
With the energy metric, we should scrap muzzleloader season for elk altogether because it's just not ethical, and the absolute best loads for 243 would be considered "insufficient" when they can absolutely kill elk as far as a hunter can shoot.
Flatbow
Well-Known Member
Not to mention how many Elk have been killed with 357 mag or 44 mag revolvers with less than 500 foot lbs!
Holly smokes Elk are not T-REX'S!
Good shot placement goes a long way and for most people that is easier with a firearm that has less recoil.
Holly smokes Elk are not T-REX'S!
Good shot placement goes a long way and for most people that is easier with a firearm that has less recoil.
Foot-pounds is a measure of kinetic energy... the ability of mass combined with velocity to impart force. The formula of E = 1/2m × v^2 favors velocity over mass because it was developed to explain the disproportionate damage that lighter objects at higher velocities cause compared to a heavier object at lower velocity with the same momentum (pounds-feet) expressed as P = m × v. The difference between momentum and energy can be measured, and is often seen as heat on more durable objects or destruction on less durable ones, e.g., bullet expansion/deformation is disproportionate to velocity but proportionate to kinetic energy. The difference in expansion of any expanding bullet that strikes at 1300 ft/sec versus 2600 ft/sec is not twice as much, it's 4X as much. When kinetic energy is discarded for velocity, we are just using velocity as a poor (not well-represented) proxy.
We want a bullet that expands enough, but not too much, penetrates sufficiently but not excessively (bullet velocity/energy on the far side of our quarry is wasted), and transfer energy as equally as possible across the internal bullet path. Balancing these is extremely difficult across a wide range of distances because of the disproportionate decrease of energy to decrease of velocity. Going to either extreme of not enough or too much penetration and the corresponding expansion/energy transfer or lack of it is easy... explosive varmint bullets or FMJ solids. The Norma articles mention this and suggests hunters pick the appropriate Norma bullet to cover the majority of reasonable situations... and then exercise the discipline to not shoot outside of those situations. Seems like good advice, and the development of more advanced bullets with wider applications opens up more situations.
We want a bullet that expands enough, but not too much, penetrates sufficiently but not excessively (bullet velocity/energy on the far side of our quarry is wasted), and transfer energy as equally as possible across the internal bullet path. Balancing these is extremely difficult across a wide range of distances because of the disproportionate decrease of energy to decrease of velocity. Going to either extreme of not enough or too much penetration and the corresponding expansion/energy transfer or lack of it is easy... explosive varmint bullets or FMJ solids. The Norma articles mention this and suggests hunters pick the appropriate Norma bullet to cover the majority of reasonable situations... and then exercise the discipline to not shoot outside of those situations. Seems like good advice, and the development of more advanced bullets with wider applications opens up more situations.
Frank in the Laurels
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..with a good well made bullet it'll handle anything you can hit with no problem..basically a 7mm mag ..
memtb
Well-Known Member
Golly Gee……what a novel concept!
Wouldn't it be nice if more hunters followed that advice! memtbI understand kinetic energy, it's kinda baked into my career, but it gives almost no prediction to results on target. KE doesn't describe how the bullet transfers its energy to living tissue, only what it's doing at any given point in the direction vector of its trajectory.
A magnum caliber with a mono bullet will have far more kinetic energy than a moderate caliber with any bullet. But the level of damage to vital organs is often inverted if you pick a good expanding/fragmenting bullet for said smaller caliber. That's because what the bullet does once it enters tissue matters far more for rapid lethality.
This is why Q and Kevin B, who have designed cartridges around monolithic bullets, advocate for spinning them as fast as possible without the bullets coming apart. Because the standard wound channel of a mono bullet is pretty abysmal, whereas if you ramp up the RPMs it has an immediate and drastic effect on permanent wound cavity. You're displacing far more tissue with a centrifugal energy that is off-axis to the direction of travel.
The same thing happens with a fragmenting or tumbling round, where massive tissue damage is caused by "pieces" of the bullet breaking off and continuing on their own skewed trajectory through tissue. You also gain the advantage of transferring far more of that beloved KE to the animal, where a much "tougher" bullet, or a solid, will retain (i.e. waste) that energy upon exiting the animal, therefore causing far less trauma.
Most hunters would be better served with a smaller caliber and better bullet vs maximizing their KE with a magnum unnecessarily. Because you're right, you can shoot a bullet that does far more tissue damage than desirable when you get into magnums. So imagine taking a bullet design that is maximized for lethality and putting it into a smaller cartridge that is easier to shoot, but has far less KE on paper.
Flatbow
Well-Known Member
Exactly!
dhbikerczar
Well-Known Member
For what is worth, I've had amazing luck with hammer hunter 180 gr mono's in 30 cal. On elk. Over the years I've migrated away from the good old partition. This is mostly due to me moving from a thick forest (225 yard max shot distance, most under 100 yards) to very open country. I still run the partition in my 30-06 but I don't hunt with it much at all any more. I had a learning period about 10 years ago with my 6.5 SAUM trying many different bullets. For me, with my experiences, the ELD-X and the hammer hunters were the only bullets i found similar wound signatures to what i was used to with the partition. Now days I hunt smaller game like deer and antelope with the 6.5 SAUM and 143 ELD-X and elk and black bear with the 180 hammer hunter, and moose with the 300gr burger .338 (but I hate that bullet, it throws lead all over the meat. I need to find a new bullet for the 338). I do not have experience with the 1:3 class twist rate of the 8.6 BO, but i do like the idea of it. I will probably never build one since where I live now is such open country though.
