Good information on annealing

fruitnut said:

If Alex Wheeler doesn't need it, I don't either: https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/keeping-it-simple-with-reloading.291717/

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That's what's great about our hobby and our country----You can do what works for you, and be happy about it. Me personally, I have seen big improvement in case life and velocity consistency from when I used to not anneal.....I will continue doing it.

I built my own induction annealer (AMP type) for $300 following this thread:

https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/induction-brass-annealer-redux.3908353/page-184

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I drop the case in and about 2.5 seconds later the annealer drops it out, properly annealed. I added some bells and whistles to mine, controlling it with an Arduino processor and using a flame sensor to sense when the neck glows and end the anneal, instead of using a timer. Different brands of brass require different anneal times. I do a lot of mixed 5.56 brass and didn't want to sort by manufacture. I anneal all my brass from .223/5.56 to 300 Weatherby.

There is also a great scientific article on cartridge brass annealing below that should shed some light on the necessity for both TIME & TEMP to anneal properly. Bottom line is you need to get the neck temp north of 1000º F (brass begins to glow around this temp) to keep the annealing time short enough, otherwise heat will propagate down the brass and also anneal the base (BAD). At 750º F, brass takes an hour to anneal, so 750º Tempilaq is a waste of time.

https://vacaero.com/information-res...rmation-and-annealing-of-cartridge-brass.html

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bowhunter123456789 said:

I built this annealer off of this video on YouTube. It works amazingly well and total cost about $220

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Adam is a good guy, has a great range, good matches, and his design is spot on. I have all the stuff to build one even though I have an AMP just because I like to tinker and it looks fun to do. Induction annealing has always appealed to me because of the repeatability of it due to minimized variables compared to flame - fuel bottle, torch settings, torch moving, etc. Flame works just fine (as confirmed by AMP), but if I can pay a little more and not have to think past pushing a button a few times, more time for other things. Same logic as a more expensive scale - I could use an Ohaus and be more precise than my V4, but not as fast. A Prometheus combines the speed and precision, just for a cost.

fruitnut said:

If Alex Wheeler doesn't need it, I don't either: https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/keeping-it-simple-with-reloading.291717/

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You definitely aren't wrong, but there are some other considerations implicit in Alex's thread there, mainly his top-quality metal work and custom reamers. The vast majority of rifles aren't made to his tolerances, so for someone starting with a standard SAAMI chamber annealing might very well have a place. His 338 Lapua Improved is a much better design than the CIP-spec 338 Lapua, and it shows in how the chamber treats brass and what he can not do in resizing operations.

Annealing is going to make more or less sense based on chamber dimensions and total brass movement in sizing operations. Sometimes you can't help a sloppy chamber, and annealing is one of the band-aids you can use on that.

But this is like case concentricity in the sense that annealing won't make something good better on it's own, it's a fix for a problem that was introduced somewhere in the process. Loose chamber, oversizing brass, thin necks, it's making up for a deficiency that's not an easy fix on it's own. In a perfect world you could run a piece of brass through an FL die and seat a bullet with zero other sizing steps involved. Some guys do get there with really tight reamer/die combos, a la all the Erik Cortina reloading stuff he posts.


At the end of the day, doing it yourself it the only way to know for sure.

turkeyguide said:

I have been using an Annealeez for a few years and find it does a great job. Their website has very good info on how to use the unit to get the results you are looking for. They are not expensive, coming in at $275 for the latest unit the Gen 4. The Gen 4 comes with metal wheels to keep from melting the ones on the older ones. As I said I have been using one for several years and have never melted a wheel. Their website clearly explains hoe to do this. American made, and very good people to deal with.
Hope this helps.

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I also use the Annealeez, the older model; it is simple to set up, easy to use, and the price is right. I'm not a competitive shooter and could not justify the AMP machine. I'm going to check and see if the new metal wheels are adaptable.

nwmnbowhunter said:

Very hot liquid can cause a lot of damage in a very short amount of time.

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BT, DT; but it need not be only liquid. Hot metal can do the same thing.

Like I said, I'm not criticizing, just interested in seeing where the line is drawn by each.

MarkInPA said:

If I choose the cheapest route using a drill and socket, will that anneal the case necks evenly?

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yes

MarkInPA said:

If the case necks are annealed unevenly, will that be detrimental to accuracy? Is it possible to anneal the case necks unevenly?

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maybe, no... the drill and socket method is about the simplest way you can learn.

MarkInPA said:

I understand that between different cases that you have to time how long they are in the flame to keep them consistent from one case to the next. Why doesn't there seem to be a lot of good information available on the subject?

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The subject has been covered extensively in just about every gun and reloading forum or blog, there's no shortage of information. Lots of videos on the torch method people have been doing it for years. Here you go, all you need to know.

My gun club has an AMP in the reloading room. I moved away so I bought an AMP. After using an AMP for two years, I can't go without one. Single best reloading tool I own.

I tell folks skip getting a new rifle and scope. Take that money and buy an AMP.

Koda_ said:

yes

maybe, no... the drill and socket method is about the simplest way you can learn.

The subject has been covered extensively in just about every gun and reloading forum or blog, there's no shortage of information. Lots of videos on the torch method people have been doing it for years. Here you go, all you need to know.

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Well.... there is lots of information available on how people are doing it. Yes, I will give you that. Whether they know what they are doing or are doing it correctly, that's another story. The most reasonable advice that I think I have heard so far on this thread is coming from nwmnbowhunter. I'm trying to keep an open mind on this but so far, I have not heard any compelling evidence that anyone is improving accuracy with their methods of annealing. I am very suspicious of any of the torch methods if the necks cannot be annealed evenly and consistently from one case to the next. I believe that many people believe they are doing it evenly and consistently, but the question is, are they? It just seems to me that a lot of people are annealing case necks because they have told that is the thing to do.

MarkInPA said:

Well.... there is lots of information available on how people are doing it. Yes, I will give you that. Whether they know what they are doing or are doing it correctly, that's another story. The most reasonable advice that I think I have heard so far on this thread is coming from nwmnbowhunter. I'm trying to keep an open mind on this but so far, I have not heard any compelling evidence that anyone is improving accuracy with their methods of annealing. I am very suspicious of any of the torch methods if the necks cannot be annealed evenly and consistently from one case to the next. I believe that many people believe they are doing it evenly and consistently, but the question is, are they? It just seems to me that a lot of people are annealing case necks because they have told that is the thing to do.

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Even nwmnbowhunter stated here if you just wanted to try annealing to use the socket and torch method, it works and it works fine. The temperature range to anneal is large enough tolerance to do it consistently and evenly with the drill torch method, even the expensive machines make them glow.

MarkInPA said:

Where can I find good and reliable information on annealing? I've been trying to find as much good information as I can. I know very little about it other than the tools, procedures, and why you do it. I'm not shooting competitively. Just a novice in search of small groups. I've seen everything from drills and sockets, to rotary turntables and torches, and of course the talked about but very pricey AMP machine. The Anneal-Rite even caught my attention. https://www.cartridgeanneal.com/anneal-rite-cartridge-annealing-machines/ Here is what I'm after. I just want to increase the precision of my handloads. If I get longer case life, that's a plus. The AMP machine is just out of the question. Way too much money. If I choose the cheapest route using a drill and socket, will that anneal the case necks evenly? If the case necks are annealed unevenly, will that be detrimental to accuracy? Is it possible to anneal the case necks unevenly? When I'm talking about annealing unevenly, I am talking about the same case neck be annealed unevenly. I understand that between different cases that you have to time how long they are in the flame to keep them consistent from one case to the next. Why doesn't there seem to be a lot of good information available on the subject? Why don't the major reloading tool suppliers such as RCBS, Hornady, etc. offer there own annealing machines? Maybe I just need to try it and see what difference it makes on velocity and on paper.

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I don't think annealing is as detailed and difficult of a task as many make it out to be. It certainly does not require expensive equipment if you're only annealing 50 to 100 cases at a time. As the old saying goes; "There's more than one way to skin a cat." I've been annealing by hand for years. It's very effective and easy. Best done in cooler weather with good ventilation though, IMO.

I anneal 30-06 and 300 WSM in a dimly lit room using a propane torch and a cast iron skillet as a heat sink to drop the hot cases in for cooling. No, I don't water quench. It's not necessary.

Bare handed, I rotate the case in the flame heating the neck and down to about 1/4" below the shoulder until the brass just starts to glow red. By the time the glow starts, the case is hot enough that I have to drop it in the skillet.

Easy peasy and very consistent.

I know that this may be different for some, but for me, I don't necessarily anneal with the thought of increasing accuracy, although 1/2-1/3 MOA in hunting rifles with low velocity spread is what I have been able to get with all of my go-to rifles (factory and semi-custom.) I do it with the mindset of increasing brass life more than anything. Brass is expensive and it seems to be lasting a long time when being annealed. I am not worried about a slight difference of inconsistency if the results produced. In my opinion, some things are worth just keeping the same if they work for you. I am guessing many have spent the time and money to test accuracy and brass life after annealing? The results are probably out there.

Bonus: The flame-annealed cases just look cool.

Annealing, especially with an AMP, produces consistent neck tension and consistent shoulder bump. I anneal anfter every firing. Once I set my FL die to two thousandths shoulder bump, I never have to adjust it for that lot of brass. It will push the shoulder back the same after every sizing.

Consistent neck tension is something experienced shooters and reloaders are seeking. I don't use bushing dies. I anneal with the AMP and run my brass through a FL die with an expander. When I seat the bullet, it's almost exactly the same everytime.

As Koda_ pointed out, the temp range for annealing is very large, as long as you get at least a slight red glow, you have "relaxed" the brass. Additional heat will not "relax" the brass any more, so you're not going to over anneal unless you get close to melting the brass. Erik Cortina demonstrated (and the scientific paper I referenced confirms) this in a video where he flame annealed several cases much longer than normal without any difference in measurable neck tension.

MarkInPA said:

Here is what I'm after. I just want to increase the precision of my handloads. If I get longer case life, that's a plus.

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A quick note about this, your load development technique will have more to do with your ammo's precision than if you even chose to anneal. But your on the right path, annealing will make your brass sizing and neck tension more consistent and improve brass life but thats just one smaller part of the process. For reference I use the socket/torch method to anneal every firing and I get about .8moa with my 280ai but that had more to do with me fine tuning my seating depth to match my barrel harmonics.