fastest 338 without the Cheytac

The rifle will weigh no more than 10 1/2 #, total weight with NXS on it would be 13#, so in that weight class, I think a mile is doable.

I am not saying that I could do it, just that it is doable.
Hell, at that distance I would have to take a sighter shot off to the side to get a reading before shooting at game.
This thread is to help out a friend who thinks he needs more than a 338 EDGE which he took game at 1350 yards last year. Me personally, that is beyond my range for game with what I have.
I mentioned to him last night that the 338 Lapua AI was probably his best bet, and after the previous posts, that seems to be the case.
I would like to here alittle more from LTLR on his build components to be scoped out at 10 1/2 pounds and be able to take game at 1200 yards.
 
None of us would be having a this discussion if we all listened to the people who said it could not be done. Isn't that why we do this thing called long range? We are blazing a trail to put it in the words of my freind trueblue.

Keep the brains thinking. keep the ideas coming. I like all the discussion. We must keep pusing the envelope. Together we can achive this next obstacle.

I might not be able to shoot a 12# rifle out to a mile but by God I am going to try.
I will keep trying because I think it is possible. Not easy but possible.
 
I've been reading all the comments on this and it is possible to make a one mile shoot with a 12# rifle how do I know this I did it today with my 12# edge built by kirby I took my first shoot at 1500 on a rock that was 2' by 2' I had my dad and my brother in-law spotting and the 300 smk hit center rock butt one inch left then we went out to 1760 on a rock of similar size my spotters said ready and I let it fly and both my dad and brother in-law holly **** it hit dead center on the rock so there proof that a 12# rifle will shoot 1 mile and you don't need a big 338 to do it just a proper built rifle and a lot shooting time
 
If your looking at the top of the performance ladder but short of the very top rung which includes all the 408 CT based wildcats, you are left with the following:

338 Lapua Improved
338 Allen Xpress
338-378 Wby
338 Kahn
338-416
338-416 Improved
8.59 Titan
338 Excaliber

Personally, while the performance is there, the 338 Excaliber does not get my approval simply because of the cost of the brass which is dramatically more then even the big Wby and Rigby brass. So for me that counts that one out as being a practical choice.

The Lazzeroni Titan is a great chambering but brass quality leaves alot to be desired and I am not sure how long we will be able to get that brass either.

I will admit, I am also not a huge fan of the 416 based 338 rounds. Not because of a lack of performance by any means but simply because it takes plenty of time to form cases and the cases are still quite costly. Plus, I have never seen one that would take the pressures that I feel is acceptable or at least offer a case life long enough for my liking. With the release of the 338-378 Wby, it basically made the 338-416 obsolete in my opinion as there is very little if any difference in brass cost, strength of performance and no need to fireform brass for the Wby.

That said, I am not a huge fan of the Wby either. Brass is generally good quality but not overly strong as far as taking chamber pressure.

When Istarted playing with big 338s I started with the 338 Kahn and was very impressed with its accuracy but the Wby and Normal brass simply would not take alot of pressure. Many are getting very impressive numbers but case life is quite short. 3000 fps with a 300 gr bullet is possible with both the big Wby and the Rigby case, maybe even 3050 fps but thats about it with anything remotely close to usible pressures. To me, if a case can not produce 5-6 firings per case, its not of much interest to me. The Kahn, Wby and Rigby can do this but your velocity will be 2900-2950 fps from what I have seen in 27-28" barrel lengths.

When I decided to design my 338 AX I wanted a case that would offer extreme strength and quality and that made it pretty clear the 338 Lapua case was the case to use. It is however about 8-12% less in capacity then the improved Wby or Rigby case. That worried me at first but after doing some testing, it was clear that the 338 AX and other 338 AI designes were capable of 3000 fps class velocity with around 100 grains of powder and a 300 gr SMK bullet. Thats 10-15 grains less powder then the big Wby, Kahn or Rigby used for the same velocity.

The Lapua case would easily hold this chamber pressure for many firings. Plus it had the added bonus of being able to use conventional length mag boxes at 3.700" in OAL compared to the Wby and Rigbys 3.900" OAL.

Yes the AX and AI will gain a bit of performance with the bullets seated out long but its not dramatic in my testing, generally 75 fps or less comparing 3.700" to 4.000" OAL and loaded to max pressures.

So for my money, I would go with the Lapua improved design, after all, that is what I put my design on and I have never been sorry for that.

As far as a Rifle design. I am not trying to toot my own horn but my Raptor Stalker is exactly what you have discribed.

Raptor receiver
Rem Hunter stock or Manner MCS-T stock
Lilja Raptor contour barrel(basically a #5 contoured barrel with 5" shank length)
Heavy flutes
APS small PK brake
Jewell trigger
HS Precision DM system

I am currently working on a new Raptor Stalker receiver design which will have an open top receiver design which will take another 1/4 lb off the rifle weight easily getting the Stalker into the 9 lb range if wanted.

You can get even lighter if you go with an Edge or Ultra Maxx class chambering because you can use a very light Borden Timberline Magnum receiver, lightweight internal mag box, #5 or #6 fluted barrels and very lightweight stocks, easily getting this class of rifle in the 8 lb range without much trouble.

As mentioned, LTLR has correctly mentioned that the rifles are no less accurate but they are much more difficult for us as humans to shoot accurately. There is a trade in for lightweight rifles, shootability!!!
 
jmden, thanks for the phone conversation.

Kirby,
great post.
This thread was started for the benefit of RH300RUM, but I have to admit, I am thinking about the 338's myself again, if my shoulder keeps improving the way it has lately from surgury.
What would be your expected velocity from your AX or Lapua AI in a 28" barrel if 30" barrel was to cumbersome to use as a carry rifle?

It seems that there is a balance that needs to be reached between weight of rifle to be able to shoot accurately and deal with recoil. I would assume that the faster you are pushing the 300gr SMK the heavier the rifle needs to be to shoot it accurately. So based on that assumption how heavy does the rifle need to be to handle the 300gr SMK at 3000fps ?
And , if a lighter rifle was the priority for a backpack rifle, would it not be benefitial to sacrifice some speed to say 2750fps and go with a 26" barrel for weight reduction and portabilty?
I know this thread started as the fastest 338 without the Cheytac, but I think it is appropriate to also look at the best balance of speed, portability, and weight issues as well.
Feedback on this would also be extremely benefitial.
 
i'm gonna throw my 3 cents in here because i have some experience shooting an edge that weighed 8.5 lbs at one time. it doesn't any more but it's one of several long stories that i don't have time for in regards to my gun. i choose to shoot the 225 gr bullets last year, number 1, because i could get them and number 2, i figured they would be easier to shoot accurately. and number 3,we were in grizzly bear country and since they shot as good as the MK's i went with the Barnes just in case we had an up close and personal. my gun is also very short, less than 36" and this also doesn't help with the "shootability"
my point to all of this is i feel you can shoot a fairly light gun accurately. 1200 was the farthest i shot it and if i did my part, i could put 3 shots in 1 moa, most of the time better. i figure 1200 was my max with good conditions so i was only concerned with 1k shooting. if you want to shoot farther, there are a couple of bullet options now, both in the 250-260 gr range that imo would work better in a light gun than the 300 MK.
 
Trueblue,

There is always some type of ballance we need to work with on long range rifles that are intended to be somewhat portable.

The nice thing about the 338 bore is that it is not dependant on barrel length to produce good velocity numbers. In fact from 26" out to 30", a chambering like the 338 Lapua Improved will gain 10-12 fps per inch and thats it!!! Past 30" it will drop to around 7-10 fps per inch depending on barrel. Simply not enough to worry about.

With lighter rifles, you need to use lighter barrel contours, as such, if you get to much length in the barrel you start running into barrel whip issues. the heavier and longer the bullet, the faster the barrel twist and the higher the velocity, the more stress is impossed onto the rifle and shooter. That is one huge benefit of the 338 bore size, it performs very well in 26-27" barrel lengths. Yes you will loose abit of velocity compared to a 30" barrel but in most cases its around 40-60 fps is all.

In a 28" barrel I would expect to see 2900-2925 fps with the 300 gr class bullets without to much trouble. I have built a 25.5" 338 AX that averaged 2890 fps with the 300 gr SMK.

To get a legit 3000 fps, I would say you would need a 30" pipe. In a much more portable rifle however you could get Well into the 2900 fps range and at long range you would never really notice the difference as far as performance goes.

Shootability wise, for a 1000 yard rifle, I like a min of 8 lbs bare rifle weight, scoped up ready to hunt with in the 10 lb class. Most healthy males can easily pack a rifle of this weight in most terrain without undue stress.

If the walking is on the moderate side I would personally much prefer to have a 12 lb class rifle and the reason why is simply because I shoot them better. In the field when rests can be less then perfectly even and square, a lighter rifle WILL always torque more then a heavier rifle. This in and of itself does not effect accuracy but it can effect how the rifle moves under recoil and that CAN effect down range shot placement.

We are often in a state of excitement in the field as well which means quicker breathing and increased heart rate. Even if we have time to relax and set up for the shot our heart rate will often be increase and that is generally in porportion to the size of critter we are shooting at!!!

A heavier rifle simply dampens our ill effects on the rifle as far as consistancy goes.

With the proper muzzle brake, good stock design and good recoil pad, you could get extremely light weight and still have a very easy shooting rifle, remember, with the partition style muzzle brakes, the lighter the rifle, the more effective they are at reducing felt recoil. A 7 lb rifle would be completely comfortable to shoot with a brake such as my Painkiller, BUT, it would not be overly easy to shoot at long range so again, we get back to that ballance.

With our modern muzzle brakes, stocks and recoil pads, recoil is really not an issue. Muzzle blast certainly can be but not recoil.

If your looking for the ultimate in performance to lb of rifle ratio, I would have to bet my 338 AM loaded with 265 gr Aluminum tipped bullets at +3450 fps in a 14 lb rifle would be very hard to beat but thats about as extreme as it gets unless you add another 4 lbs and get into a 34" barrel and then your looking at 3550 fps with a .88 BC bullet.

I have tested my Xtreme Heavy Sporters to 3010 yards with the above combo and even though it was an 18 lb rifle, it held 3/4 moa at this range and I would consider an 18 lb rifle to be a light weight when dealing with rifles designed to be shot at ranges over 2000 yards.

Still thats not a portable rifle for an all day hike, again, back to balance.

You can easily get into the 2800-2900 fps range with an easily portable rifle and thats with a 300 gr SMK. That is certainly not the only bullet around but its the standard all others are measured by for long range shooting. Lighter bullets offer much more velocity potential for sure but give up some ballistic performance.
 
Davewilson,

Pretty sure no one said lightweight rifles can not be extremely accurate or that they can not be used extremely accurately in the field, a light weight rifle just takes more "piloting" from the shooter then a heavier rifle is all.

There is a reason XP-100 handguns are so extremely accurate and often match or exceed the accuracy of rifles, Extremely stiff and rigid receivers and very stiff and rigid barrels being the short length that they are. Similiar reasons why your very short rifle performs so well.

We just have to ask more of ourselves to shoot the lighter rifles as accurately as the heavier ones is the only point I have seen.
 
My 338AX center-grip XP-100 is in the lightweight class, scoped is under 11 pounds.
I have not done my drops to 1200 yards yet ( I have spent more time with small cartridges this spring and summer, such as: 6.5-284, 7mm SAUM, and 6.5 Leopard {WSM} ), but I believe that even with the recoil of the 300 grain bullets-quite more significant than the 250's that hitting at that distance will not be an issue.

After all, it is just recoil, right:D

Seriously now if you are recoil sensitive, have a flinch habit, or are scared of getting hit, then the practice time to make a lighter rig shoot good consistently at distance is going to frustrate you.

Also, in some ways a specialty pistol is easier to shoot in that, stock weld, proper placement of butt-stock in the shoulder pocket, and worrying about your heartbeat transmitting through your cheek and or shoulder are not an issue for me.
 
some great info there 50driver. cheers for shareing.
i have been considering a 338 improved for the next build in the 13 pound bare rifle braket and had thought that 30 inch barrells would be the most effiecent.
but i'm more than happy to lose 50 odd fps to get a more compact system.
 
Dan Lilja extensively tested fps loss per inch of barrel length in a 338-378 wby and posted all his results on his web site, www.riflebarrels.com

Go read that and you will be surpised with the results he got and I have mirrored his results many times.
 
Dan Lilja extensively tested fps loss per inch of barrel length in a 338-378 wby and posted all his results on his web site, www.riflebarrels.com

Go read that and you will be surpised with the results he got and I have mirrored his results many times.

Supprised is an understatement. Ive always bought into the whole ''50-60 feet per second per inch'' theory and applied it accross the board when trying to reach stated Weatherby velocities(26 in bbl) out of my Winchester 300wby with a 24 inch pipe. Never could even come close. I just blamed the short pipe for the lack of velocity.
Maybe theres something to be said about overbore cartriges in 338 caliber with heavy bullets. Only 13fps per inch of barrel, avg. in a ''packing weight/length'' rifle is a real suprise for sure. I wouldve guessed much more loss per inch.
Good read. Thank you for posting the link.
 
Lazzeroni 8.59 (.338) Titan is the most powerful commerically loaded and available 338 magnum in the world ,,,,,
 
The limitation of the terms Commercially loaded limit ALOT of performance out there. I am working on my new 338 Raptor that will split the difference between the Lazzeroni 338 and the 338-408 CT class wildcats and yes I am working as we speak on fully formed, correct headstamped brass.

We are expecting a full 3150 fps with a 300 gr SMK or Berger Gen 2 300 gr Hybrid, far and away more potent then anything out there short of the Chey Tac class wildcats and it will also fit nicely in my Raptor receiver, by design :D.

I will not offer loaded ammo simply because large volume commerical ammo is simply another limitation to extreme range precision performance. If you can load for a 30-06 however, you will easily be able to load for any of my wildcats.
 
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