At what point are you done with load development?
- Thread starter SilverbulletMAG
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SilverbulletMAG
Well-Known Member
100% agree. These tight groups we're all seeking at the range are (for me at least) all shot from a rest in as ideal conditions as possible...the exact opposite of what we typically find when hunting in the field. I always carry shooting sticks with me when spot-n-stalk hunting and frequently practice from the sticks, off a bag prone, resting against a tree or any other possible real world scenario. If I don't have a good group shooting in those positions however, I want to know it's because I didn't do my part and not because of the rifle/ammo combo.
Super Thirty
Member
My standards are different for different rifles. My short range rifles that I use exclusively for hunting in heavy brush/Timber don't require the accuracy standard of a varmint rifle so I'm happy with 1.5" at 100 yds because the shots are no more than 50 yds. We often say minute of moose. My open country hunting rifles have a higher standard. 1/2 to 3/4" is what I strive for. Recently I picked up a heavy barrel .308 for "playing" with so that I can play with different powders and loads without worrying about taking a barrel out of a 257 Weatherby or my favourite 300 H&H.
Brian Litz writes about weapon engagement zone and hit probability in one of his books in great detail. I think it is titled Accuracy and Precision for Long Range Shooting. Basically how his analysis shakes out for big game hunters is that a weapon system capable of precision greater than 1/2 MOA won't practically increase hit probability on a 10" circle sized target until extended distances as in 1000 yards plus. If your looking to place rounds on targets like varmints at long range then you need a 1/4 moa system. To roll it all up I'm looking for around a 1/2 MOA (or close) load with single digit SD and ES close to the max charge (because I want the velocity to extend the supersonic range of the projectile) and I'm done. When I find a load that meets those standards my time is better spent shooting targets at long range in order to improve my shooting skills.
jimirwin
Active Member
dana bodnar
Well-Known Member
Now your at the shooting stage. Try to perfect your shooting skills and achieving the tightest groups at 1000 yards, practice reading the wind, fine tune your ballistic calculator, practice shooting up and down hill and uncomfortable positions that should take you a while and by that time there will be a new latest and greatest new bullet or powder that will come out and you get to start all over again. May the FORCE be with you..................
littlewhaler
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2012
- Messages
- 59
keithcandler
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2005
- Messages
- 650
Silverbullet, I shoot a lot of Remington Hunting rifles, bedded, freefloated, good trigger and glass. 7RM is one heck of an accurate round in a Remington with a factory sporter barrel. I shoot a lot of Nosler bullets, 140-160g ballistic tips and accubonds. Typically, I will seat the bullet .005 off the lands, work with the powder charge, and then tweek the OAL using ogive gauge to measure with. Remingtons will shoot 3/8" and smaller without much fuss. The 140g Accubond and ballistic tips are ungodly accurate with bug holes abounding.
Now, most guys never need this kind of accuracy for hunting. When you are shooting beyond 400 yards, this is where the accuracy is needed. Also, hunting rifles like the 7RM, have high velocity long bearing surface bullets, so cleaning down to bare metal every 20-30 shots is an absolute must.
I use Remington brass, and practically no brass prep other than neck sizing new brass with a very heavy chamfer on the case mouth to help start the bullet. I have RCBS full length sizer, and Forster Benchrest bullet seater. I have less than .002 run out on my loaded rounds, but I did find that using a little bit of Lee sizing wax in the inside of the case neck did reduce run out substantially as the expander ball did not yank the case out of alignment. I also have a set of Redding competition dies for the 7RM, and did not shoot any better groups with them.
Stock designs can be a huge part of accuracy. The synthetic stocks flex in the pistol grip and just in front of the recoil lug. So, I put on Boyd's laminate, and I love Jewel, trigger tec triggers.
To shoot bucks at longer range, you also need to see if they have broken off any brow tines, so I shoot a minimum of 4x16 scopes, and prefer higher power. Kansas puts out some tremendous bucks and they fight all the time.
For those of you that struggle, the Rem 700 in 7 Mag with a Boyd's laminate, bedded, floated, muzzle break, good trigger and glass will shoot 3/8" with very little load development with 140g Noslers or tipped triple shocks(seat .050 off the lands) using R#19, IMR 4350, or R#22. There is a node with the 150-154g bullets at 3250 with R#25 and win mag primers. Also, 160-168g bullets at 3100 with Retumbo and fed 215's.
Basics on hunting rifles is the same with bench rifles.
Start with the bullet close to the lands, develop your best powder charge. 140g ttsx .050 off the lands
Next, tweek the seating depth, use Comparitor or Ogive gauge!!!!!
Change out a primer at the end, and this can make one heck of a difference!
Clean your barrel down to bare metal every 20-30 shots
Shooting three shot groups puts a whole lot less copper fouling in the barrel as those 4th and 5th shots are shot in super hot bore, this also helps increase barrel life not shooting a barrel so hot.
Don't work up a load in a scalding hot barrel, cool the barrel with rubbing alcohol and water 50/50, rubbing a wash cloth on the barrel with liquid dripping off the bottom of the barrel.
Typically accuracy of a tuned Rem 700 in 7 mag the way I have described with a 6x24 scope will be in the 2.5-3.5" area at 600 yards with 140g. This translates to 1.5-2" at 300. My whole family shoots 7 Mags, some savages, some browings, all shoot similar loads with fantastic accuracy. Head/neck shooting does at 300 is a hobby in the family, and our limits here are liberal.
Some factory barrels shoot a lot better than others. Fouling tendencies from barrel to barrel are as different as people are different. My cousin's Savages need de coppering every 7-9 rounds to keep shooting tiny groups.
For the average guy and short range, his biggest limiting factor is how much he gets to practice with his rifle. 1" groups will suffice for deer and elk hunting under 400 yards, with out a doubt. The vast majority of guys have accuracy issues because their bores are fouled badly, very badly. This issue in conjunction with using Factory ammo, in a non bedded rifle with the barrel not freefloated bumps the accuracy in most rifles up to 1.5" at 100, which is more than adequate for 300 yard shooting without much fuss.
littlewhaler
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2012
- Messages
- 59
Lots of wisdom here since reloading and hunting for me is very personal experience. Only I am making the shot or killing the animal. So, wanting to do that with skill and precision got me into reloading and lots of practice. I find "good enough" points that give me high confidence in a load/rifle combination knowing there is always someone better than me in shooting skill and reload expertise. Getting consistent 1/2" MOA with good velocity and no pressure danger signs puts my mind in good place. Then I practice at 100 Yd intervals out to 500 or so. (Eyes not great anymore). Bottom line..you do it to reach that calm space where you feel good about going on a hunt with your load and the distance you can consistently place your round. Competition shooting I think would be much different experience..I am a hunter only and love shooting and learning with detailed records of every shot down my barrel and every hunt. So rewarding.
I agree, this has nothing to do with load development. Once I find an acceptable load, it's time to work on me. In the case of my .338 RUM mention earlier, I just haven't got to that point. I did "settle" on a load to elk hunt with this year, just decreased the range I would normally expect it to perform. Loaded up a bunch and started verifying dope and field shooting for several shooting sessions, then went hunting. Actually passed on a bull that was just out of my predetermined range with that rifle, two days in a row. Tried to get closer, they slipped over the top before I could move in and get set up.
I jumped in the rabbit hole with both feet, I have arrived at a new level of reloading by getting into the long range thing. The whole thing is highly addictive to me. I have more expensive dies than I ever thought were needed, tools I swore I never needed that I now actually have and use. Coming to accept that better brass is better, regardless the cost. I imagine it's going to keep going on like that for awhile.
Chasing bug holes is all part of it, I can't seem to quit. I'm just a few years into this Long range deal. Shooting a barrel out is the last of my concerns.
There are some very helpful folks on this forum, I'm appreciative for that.
Just wish my pockets could keep up with my Xmas list
Chasing bug holes is all part of it, I can't seem to quit. I'm just a few years into this Long range deal. Shooting a barrel out is the last of my concerns.
There are some very helpful folks on this forum, I'm appreciative for that.
Just wish my pockets could keep up with my Xmas list
johnlittletree
Well-Known Member
Once I feel like I have accomplished what I set out to do. For F-Class for instance I am going for a stabil bullet that transitions well and the potential to turn in very small groups if I do my job. The smaller the groups the better!
For hunting I am not too concerned about getting a group that is 1/2 to 1/4 MOA consistently all the time or better. Obviously I want accurate loads but that is secondary to maximum leathality. First I am not using VLD's because they should never be used to hunt unless you are some terrible human being that looks at animals as beasts that have no dignity or sanctity. Why because the second someone tells you they do not consistently retain their mass and have issues with penetration and retaining the jacket and you continue to use them anyways you are an evil person. It is fine as long as you are innocent and do not know but once you do that is another ball of wax. So since a properly designed bullet for hunting medium sized game on up like deer and larger have thick jackets, no empty space at the front of the jacket, either a partition or insanely thick jacket, a flat base and a shape that engages the rifling far more than VLD's do you will never get the same size groups and external ballistics that you do with VLD's. For a hunting round it is retentive and backwards to focus on the things a target shooter would focus on. The goal of a hunting load should be reliable acceptable accuracy in a package that is as lethal as you can make it with sufficient energy down range to quickly kill the animal. Since no one shoots Elk for instance from a bench 60-100 times in a single day recoil is not a factor for anyone with sound judgement how many Elk are you going to shoot at 1200m in a single day? On the other hand if your Bench Rest shooting or shooting in any competition hi power, palma, F etc.....recoil is a key factor in how successful you can be and tolerance to it varies greatly from one person to the next. When you approach a hunting load from a BR perspective you have failed before you have even started to prep the cases. It is like getting the right answer for the wrong problem on a test. If you ask the wrong questions and chase the wrong goals you can never get the right answer to the problem at hand.
People on this sight are too focused on bc, velocity, and microscopic group size at 100m instead of weight retention, penetration and the actual killing characteristics of the "hunting" load. The title of the board tell all "Long Range Hunting" vs "Hunting at Long Range" the first example the emphasis on on the "Range" of the hunting and the second one "Hunting" is emphasized and range is secondary. Some would say "That is just semantics!" as if "semantics" is a bad thing but these people generally have not looked up the definition and have no idea what they are actually saying or the power of language in how we approach a thing. It is as if they think it is a cheap trick to mention when in fact it is not!
If you are loading ammo with no fixed goal based on the needs of the specific activity you are loading for you will likely wander all over the place. You have to know what your goal is from the start. Once you accomplish your goal unless you revise the goal or new components come to market or your old powder is no longer made you have no need to go on a load Safari just for the sake of a load safari.
People forget that the point of a hobby is in the doing and in the fun. If you are spending more time reloading than shooting, more time talking about reloading or shooting than doing it you have lost sight of the hobby. Do you have a shooting hobby and reloading helps you with your shooting or is reloading your hobby and shooting is just an excuse to do more loading? A man can not serve two master's well! All too often internet forums turn into group hug zones and peer approval sites instead of what the sight is actual about.
People seldom do any introspective thinking and freq. lie to themselves about almost everything from why they eat food that they know is bad for them to what their hobby really is. You see it all over the internet like a car forum about restoring car's or building hi performance engines but they are full of people that just pay other people to do all the work for them or they spend all of their time on the forum talking about the hobby instead of actually doing the hobby.
You have to have a vision. You have to have clearly defined goals or outcome you desire. You need to plan the steps you plan to use to achieve that goal or outcome. You have to have enough knowledge and wisdom to self evaluate a situation and make changes if you are not getting the outcome you desire. You have to be consistent. It does not matter if you trying to find a cure for cancer or trying to get food to eat with your rifle or shooting the smallest group you can at 1000m the above is fundamental to all of them.
There is an old saying I modified the original saying was "Awareness Brings Answers" In middle school I realized that you can over think a thing and never make any progress if you do not act on your thoughts it is not enough to just think about a thing or debate a thing. So I changed that saying to "Awareness Brings Answers, Actions Bring Results"the original saying was one I was taught in martial arts class as a meditation mantra.
Just the other day I went hunting and it was great to get out and do some hunting versus talking about hunting online. It was super cold but we had fresh snow. Always have a goal and plans to get you there and then make sure you "do" what your hobby is. Nothing wrong with reloading being a hobby but you have to know if reloading is to feed your hobby of hunting or if hunting is feeding your reloading hobby they are not at all the same thing! Cheers! Remember if the animal is dying a slow painful death or you routinely have to track the animal for a long distance you are doing something wrong! All life should be sacred and have dignity in life and in death! If you are going to take a beasts life for food or for sport the least you can do is kill it quickly! If you are more concerned with the range than the meat you should think about shooting at paper and not a living breathing sentient life! This is not specific to you it is general statement.
Hope this helps a little as no one seems to cover this sort of thing anymore. Idea's and thought exercises and looking at your personal responsibility to yourself and the things you interact with is so important yet almost no one bothers to teach these things. Almost no one is mindful of the outcome they are looking to achieve no matter if it is a debate or driving to the store we turn on auto pilot and let life happen to us instead of taking an active participatory role.
For hunting I am not too concerned about getting a group that is 1/2 to 1/4 MOA consistently all the time or better. Obviously I want accurate loads but that is secondary to maximum leathality. First I am not using VLD's because they should never be used to hunt unless you are some terrible human being that looks at animals as beasts that have no dignity or sanctity. Why because the second someone tells you they do not consistently retain their mass and have issues with penetration and retaining the jacket and you continue to use them anyways you are an evil person. It is fine as long as you are innocent and do not know but once you do that is another ball of wax. So since a properly designed bullet for hunting medium sized game on up like deer and larger have thick jackets, no empty space at the front of the jacket, either a partition or insanely thick jacket, a flat base and a shape that engages the rifling far more than VLD's do you will never get the same size groups and external ballistics that you do with VLD's. For a hunting round it is retentive and backwards to focus on the things a target shooter would focus on. The goal of a hunting load should be reliable acceptable accuracy in a package that is as lethal as you can make it with sufficient energy down range to quickly kill the animal. Since no one shoots Elk for instance from a bench 60-100 times in a single day recoil is not a factor for anyone with sound judgement how many Elk are you going to shoot at 1200m in a single day? On the other hand if your Bench Rest shooting or shooting in any competition hi power, palma, F etc.....recoil is a key factor in how successful you can be and tolerance to it varies greatly from one person to the next. When you approach a hunting load from a BR perspective you have failed before you have even started to prep the cases. It is like getting the right answer for the wrong problem on a test. If you ask the wrong questions and chase the wrong goals you can never get the right answer to the problem at hand.
People on this sight are too focused on bc, velocity, and microscopic group size at 100m instead of weight retention, penetration and the actual killing characteristics of the "hunting" load. The title of the board tell all "Long Range Hunting" vs "Hunting at Long Range" the first example the emphasis on on the "Range" of the hunting and the second one "Hunting" is emphasized and range is secondary. Some would say "That is just semantics!" as if "semantics" is a bad thing but these people generally have not looked up the definition and have no idea what they are actually saying or the power of language in how we approach a thing. It is as if they think it is a cheap trick to mention when in fact it is not!
If you are loading ammo with no fixed goal based on the needs of the specific activity you are loading for you will likely wander all over the place. You have to know what your goal is from the start. Once you accomplish your goal unless you revise the goal or new components come to market or your old powder is no longer made you have no need to go on a load Safari just for the sake of a load safari.
People forget that the point of a hobby is in the doing and in the fun. If you are spending more time reloading than shooting, more time talking about reloading or shooting than doing it you have lost sight of the hobby. Do you have a shooting hobby and reloading helps you with your shooting or is reloading your hobby and shooting is just an excuse to do more loading? A man can not serve two master's well! All too often internet forums turn into group hug zones and peer approval sites instead of what the sight is actual about.
People seldom do any introspective thinking and freq. lie to themselves about almost everything from why they eat food that they know is bad for them to what their hobby really is. You see it all over the internet like a car forum about restoring car's or building hi performance engines but they are full of people that just pay other people to do all the work for them or they spend all of their time on the forum talking about the hobby instead of actually doing the hobby.
You have to have a vision. You have to have clearly defined goals or outcome you desire. You need to plan the steps you plan to use to achieve that goal or outcome. You have to have enough knowledge and wisdom to self evaluate a situation and make changes if you are not getting the outcome you desire. You have to be consistent. It does not matter if you trying to find a cure for cancer or trying to get food to eat with your rifle or shooting the smallest group you can at 1000m the above is fundamental to all of them.
There is an old saying I modified the original saying was "Awareness Brings Answers" In middle school I realized that you can over think a thing and never make any progress if you do not act on your thoughts it is not enough to just think about a thing or debate a thing. So I changed that saying to "Awareness Brings Answers, Actions Bring Results"the original saying was one I was taught in martial arts class as a meditation mantra.
Just the other day I went hunting and it was great to get out and do some hunting versus talking about hunting online. It was super cold but we had fresh snow. Always have a goal and plans to get you there and then make sure you "do" what your hobby is. Nothing wrong with reloading being a hobby but you have to know if reloading is to feed your hobby of hunting or if hunting is feeding your reloading hobby they are not at all the same thing! Cheers! Remember if the animal is dying a slow painful death or you routinely have to track the animal for a long distance you are doing something wrong! All life should be sacred and have dignity in life and in death! If you are going to take a beasts life for food or for sport the least you can do is kill it quickly! If you are more concerned with the range than the meat you should think about shooting at paper and not a living breathing sentient life! This is not specific to you it is general statement.
Hope this helps a little as no one seems to cover this sort of thing anymore. Idea's and thought exercises and looking at your personal responsibility to yourself and the things you interact with is so important yet almost no one bothers to teach these things. Almost no one is mindful of the outcome they are looking to achieve no matter if it is a debate or driving to the store we turn on auto pilot and let life happen to us instead of taking an active participatory role.
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