You can never be 100% certain...

[BrentM]

Where I practice most often the wind generally has a normal pattern that comes l to r 0-500 and then turns and goes toward the target 700-1000. There is a null that also produces a little up 700-1000. 800-1000 is quite often a dead zone or R to L. My neighbor seems to miss the shifts on this property often, it his place ha ha, and I've seen that wind be l to r at shooter and at 400 it is r to l. This year has been quite odd and exciting for me due to the ever changing directions and speeds. Practice has been an absolute blast with constant changes in holds to maintain hits. I also swtiched to a 223 running 88's to make things more challenging. That's what lr shooting is all about for me.

 

[parshal]

The more you shoot the less confident you become at those ranges imo.

No truer statement can be said. The more I shoot long range competitions the more I realize shooting an animal at, even, 800 yards and getting a perfect hit is a crap shoot.

What's the wind hold for this?

 

[BrentM]

No truer statement can be said. The more I shoot long range competitions the more I realize shooting an animal at, even, 800 yards and getting a perfect hit is a crap shoot.

What's the wind hold for this?

View attachment 295356

For that there is no hold, its right in front of you. ha
PRS comps was good for me from a positional stand point but didn't do much for hunting. Most often we have a lot of time to study the environment for that unless you hunt predators all winter. It does make you think long and hard about those shots way out there tho, which is good, we should.

 

[parshal]

PRS comps was good for me from a positional stand point but didn't do much for hunting.

The part the comps have taught me to ask is will I get a first round hit or will I have to spot my miss and make an adjustment. Shooting an animal vs steel makes me pause. For that matter, I had a top competition shooter once tell me he's taken a shot in the dirt near an animal to see what the wind was doing before taking the shot at the animal. I'm guessing that worked due to long range.

 

[BrentM]

The part the comps have taught me to ask is will I get a first round hit or will I have to spot my miss and make an adjustment. Shooting an animal vs steel makes me pause. For that matter, I had a top competition shooter once tell me he's taken a shot in the dirt near an animal to see what the wind was doing before taking the shot at the animal. I'm guessing that worked due to long range.

I can and does. Usually pick a spot far enough away but not too far. Can't usually do that with predators. I'd rather take the spotter and have an elk spook then wound it. I'd be looking for a way to get closer more than likely.

 

[LRNut]

My comments appear in your quote. The point of my original post was meant to illustrate what appeared to be a windless condition was anything but, ostensibly due to a wind blowing down the valley/depression between me and the target. So much for taking a 1200 yard shot at an elk, then, right?

Are you getting chillier mornings than what has been the norm as the fall approaches?

Could it be warmer air off the ground from sun warming it as it is hitting the cooler air about 10-15' above?

Nope; temp is much cooler in the morning but not much different: 48-52 deg when the sun comes up. This morning it was complete fog, which made the wind estimate pretty easy as it very slowly blew off. No mirage, wind read 1-2 mph at my site, lighter flame bent hard to the right (don't laugh, when it feels calm, it is valuable feedback). Held 1 MOA left and hit a few inches right of center. My Savage Lapua hit dead center but 1.25 MOA high - interesting, as the last ten have hit above center.

 

[dfanonymous]

The part the comps have taught me to ask is will I get a first round hit or will I have to spot my miss and make an adjustment. Shooting an animal vs steel makes me pause. For that matter, I had a top competition shooter once tell me he's taken a shot in the dirt near an animal to see what the wind was doing before taking the shot at the animal. I'm guessing that worked due to long range.

What kind of competition? You're not doing spotting shots in PRS, and steel is smaller at distance than a animals vitals most stages…usually around MOA or less. If you rely on spotting shots in PRS you are wasting time trying to be competitive.

If you're talking about bench rest…IMO bench rest shooters are the more hard headed, poor wind callers….
You get spotters because it's about shooting groups, not making wind calls…

If you're talking about ELR competitions like ko2m or similar, you wouldn't be here talking right now, since you'd see first hand some of us make cold barrel hits at 2 miles. If you've shot at raton, you'd know it's a windy mess most days.

 

[LRNut]

I can and does. Usually pick a spot far enough away but not too far. Can't usually do that with predators. I'd rather take the spotter and have an elk spook then wound it. I'd be looking for a way to get closer more than likely.

I notice on my video yesterday the dirt clearly blew to the right. One more advantage of my 28N: I can see the impact. Edge and Lapua make it difficult but not impossible, depending on the range. I also notice deer feeding between me and my gongs don't even lift up their heads when a bullet flies over them.

As for King of 2M, what size targets are they shooting? Does anyone always score first round hits? What percentage do?

 

[parshal]

What kind of competition? You're not doing spotting shots in PRS, and steel is smaller at distance than a animals vitals most stages…usually around MOA or less. If you rely on spotting shots in PRS you are wasting time trying to be competitive.

I'm shooting NRL/PRS competition. The best indication of conditions is your last shot. In order to do that you must spot that shot. At least in NRL, all of the top shooters will say you must see your shots. Those top shooters are even able to see trace in their scope. I'd argue that if you're not spotting your hits/misses then you aren't going to be competitive.

I don't want to derail this thread any more than I unfortunately already have. I was bringing up the competition to show that having shot a lot of steel in the 900-1800 yard range in all sorts of conditions gives me the experience to understand that environmentals are not always easy to discern and shooting at an animal requires a little more pause.

 

[LRNut]

I'm shooting NRL/PRS competition. The best indication of conditions is your last shot. In order to do that you must spot that shot. At least in NRL, all of the top shooters will say you must see your shots. Those top shooters are even able to see trace in their scope. I'd argue that if you're not spotting your hits/misses then you aren't going to be competitive.

I don't want to derail this thread any more than I unfortunately already have. I was bringing up the competition to show that having shot a lot of steel in the 900-1800 yard range in all sorts of conditions gives me the experience to understand that environmentals are not always easy to discern and shooting at an animal requires a little more pause.

You are not derailing the thread at all; your comments are great.

I must admit I know very little about Kof2M; my goal is to extend my ability to hit animals such as deer and elk as far as possible, using gear I can carry in the field, and not rely on a spotter. I googled the topic and learned quite a bit, including the fact that the Applied Ballistics team is composed of three people, to include Emil P as the wind caller. The amount of gear these guys use is insane, to say nothing of the caliber used, and while it will advance techniques/gear used for LR hunting, it just doesn't interest me terribly. Brian Litz's group of 17x22 at 2M is certainly impressive, but that is obviously too far to be shooting an animal.

 

[parshal]

The AB team was in my squad at the Nightforce ELR this summer in Wyoming. Average target distance was 1400, closest was 950 and the longest was 2400. Their ability to make first round impacts at those distances in that wind was impressive. I'd make my call and see where my round hit and adjust. They made first round impacts. Bryan won the match.

Someone commented that the ELR match gives people unrealistic expectations for hunting. A hit anywhere on a elk steel target counts as a hit while your vital zone is much, much smaller. We were just trying to hit the steel not hit it in the vitals.

 

[BrentM]

The AB team was in my squad at the Nightforce ELR this summer in Wyoming. Average target distance was 1400, closest was 950 and the longest was 2400. Their ability to make first round impacts at those distances in that wind was impressive. I'd make my call and see where my round hit and adjust. They made first round impacts. Bryan won the match.

Someone commented that the ELR match gives people unrealistic expectations for hunting. A hit anywhere on a elk steel target counts as a hit while your vital zone is much, much smaller. We were just trying to hit the steel not hit it in the vitals.

This is the key. People routinely hit a target at 1000 that is 2moa or larger and think that crap counts. Unless you're in the less than moa range of dead center it's a bad shot and a wounded animal. Hitting the edge of a 20" at 1k is good for training and score but that's it.

 

[BrentM]

I notice on my video yesterday the dirt clearly blew to the right. One more advantage of my 28N: I can see the impact. Edge and Lapua make it difficult but not impossible, depending on the range. I also notice deer feeding between me and my gongs don't even lift up their heads when a bullet flies over them.

As for King of 2M, what size targets are they shooting? Does anyone always score first round hits? What percentage do?

ELR is a much different gig and the percentage of hits is very small, especially first round. There is no doubt those events have merit but its not a hunting comp, its really all about big heavy rifles, teams of people, and large targets. Of course hitting a 10" plate at 2 miles is not the goal, it's just hitting a massive plate to score hits. I've not shot k2m. I don't have the rifles to be a participant.

 

[LRNut]

The AB team was in my squad at the Nightforce ELR this summer in Wyoming. Average target distance was 1400, closest was 950 and the longest was 2400. Their ability to make first round impacts at those distances in that wind was impressive. I'd make my call and see where my round hit and adjust. They made first round impacts. Bryan won the match.

Someone commented that the ELR match gives people unrealistic expectations for hunting. A hit anywhere on a elk steel target counts as a hit while your vital zone is much, much smaller. We were just trying to hit the steel not hit it in the vitals.

How big were those targets?