Velocity spread based off load or reloading practices

[Canhunter35]

I see a lot of talk on small es, and the use of it to 'determine' the node.
And developing different loads chasing a small es on velocity.
In my experience I've found reloading practice such as annealing, uniforming flash holes, Wright sorting primers, along with other consistent practices are the most influential towards a tight velocity spread.
And the node is found by group size at various ranges while reloading practice will produce consistent results.
I'm also going to add I rely on my target at extended range to determine the spread of my velocity and shooting under 10 rounds across a magneto or labradar does not give a great picture on the the es of a load vs a 100 rounds at extended ranges imo.
I would like to hear others thoughts and techniques to manage their velocity spread.

 

[Dmagna]

It's is both equally, if the gun doesn't like the load it won't shoot, if you don't know how to reload it won't shoot.

 

[Creedmoor shooter]

Unable to vote. For me I think it has alot to do with my reloading practices. I got alot tighter velocity spreads when I started annealing, turning necks, and using bushing dies along with deburring flash holes and uniforming primer pockets. Pretty common now for me to get a single digit SD

 

[Canhunter35]

I've No idea why the poll doesn't work?

 

[Mikecr]

If your chrono shows high velocity spread near the muzzle, it's high down range.
I load develop for accuracy, including at extended ranges, and reload best I can for low ES.

 

[Mike AVM]

I look at ES as well but sometimes your most accurate load won't have the lowest ES. It's never really hurt me but if it's accurate at 200, it's been accurate farther on. Annealing is as far as I go on case prepe. I chamfer and de-burr but that's about it. I have several rifles that are 0.5 MOA without neck turning. I do use either a mandrel or a Lee collet die for the neck and I feel that ameliorates my lack of neck turning.

 

[BrentM]

I don't see how the extended range target makes any difference for velocity spread. Spread is a simple mathematical equation based off the sample data. If you have an SD at the muzzle you will have an SD at 1000. All the long range target tells you is what influence barrel time has on the bullet flight path.

Consistency is key in reloading. Accurate powder measure, consistent neck tension, consistent seating depth, proper brass prep and condition (annealed).

 

[Mike AVM]

If you find a good "node" it will be fairly wide. I have a 270 that will shoot a 130 Barnes the same with 62-63.5 grains of RE23. Same POI, slight increase in velocity but essentially the same spot over and over. I have other rifles that I try to find a node as wide but can only go + or - 0.3 grains. If you read Dan Newberry's OCW papers you'll get a good primer. http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/

 

[Barrelnut]

IMO, regardless of your method of load development, good reloading practices are key to maintaining the loads accuracy and low ES.

Found that once I have a good load, for consistency, I make several rounds at once. Enough to get me thru the hunting season and practice, usually 50 to 100 depending on the rifle. Then tweak the zero or dope, if needed to fit that "lot" of ammo. Just seems more consistent than trying do duplicate the same load 3 or 4 times a year.

 

[DUSTY NOGGIN]

reloading practices .. comes first because you can see and physically measure those variations

you cant know all the variations of your load are variations from the load without first deleting the variations with your reloading practices

 

[Canhunter35]

I don't see how the extended range target makes any difference for velocity spread. Spread is a simple mathematical equation based off the sample data. If you have an SD at the muzzle you will have an SD at 1000. All the long range target tells you is what influence barrel time has on the bullet flight path.

What I meant is sample size of recorded shots must be large enough to have an accurate assessment of your velocity spread. I don't bother pumping a ton of rounds across a Chrony, I let the targets tell me.

 

[kraig]

I've found that small ES are primarily a result of extremely consistent reloading practice coupled with using the same lot of primers, powder, & bullets (sorted or unsorted depending on your level of OCD) Group size at range is more related to using the consistent reloading practice to find a combination of all the variables that a specific firearm shoots well.

Having said that the further away from the muzzle you get the more important both become. There are some exceptions like heavy bullets that don't stabilize until 150-250 yards out like my son's 7mag shooting 195 berger bullets. It groups better at 400-500 yards than 100, but that is another topic all together. Sometimes we get real lucky and end up with a rifle that will shoot many different loads well or be forgiving but regardless the further you get out there the more pronounced the difference show in group size.

Having said that reality is that for the average guy you can be pretty sloppy with your reloading practice and get very good groups with a good barrel out to 300 yards or so. For most non-long range hunters they never need to really worry about ES or much tuning of a load at all to effectively shoot something out to 300 yards. 2moa is more than enough. (and everyone takes a gasp of air in horror) Most of the time an average hunter in my experience really doesn't need to reload because they don't shoot enough to make it worth it.

Having said that, then there are the rest of us. We reload because we want the best groups possible at the furthest range possible and that takes a lot of time, money, & practice BUT we do it because we like it. The reality check to all of this really boils down to the shooter and his/her ability to read the wind conditions has a lot more to do with hits than does the bullets being shot. I have plenty of 1/2 moa rifles w/specific loads but out past 600-800 yards it really becomes more about my ability to read the conditions that I'm shooting in and knowing how to compensate. A good ES and load development just make it easier.

 

[Ronald W Schaefer]

Attention to detail, consistency in construction and process. Then I look for smallest SD vs ES as it is mathematically better indicator (I'm told by professor of statistics) of adherence to the mean = repeatability.

FYI, my process:

1. I look for bullets that are about 2/3 of the heaviest available in the cartridge range and that twist will stabilize; the reason is that usually gives me a Sec Den >~ .240; also bullets tailored to my intent. I pick a strong, safe load then try several bullets (of the same weight) with same charge, brass, primer and seating depth, solving for the best bullet variable first. That's usually about a 70% solution right there.

2. I then pick a powder that gives the fastest velocity at a loading density of about 92% (give or take), then do a ladder from there solving for velocity "node", and looking for lowest SD. That said, I've had some great groups with wide ES/SD and awful groups with single digit SD...I usually attribute that to the wrong powder so the I'll switch, but if it works?

3. I use a premium primer, non-mag for mid weight charges, up to 60 grs, mag primers for heavier charges

4. Nowadays I cheat and buy new Lapua or Nosler custom brass and just use it after weighing. Then use an RCBS cartridge prep center after firings to resize and re-do. I used to turn necks, clean flashole, primer pockets etc. with marginal improvement (just my experience), so I quit bothering with that except for my bench rest rifle.

5. Finally I fiddle with seating depth and neck tension as fine tune effort. Usually the rifle is shooting pretty good before I get to that so I then decide if I have a magazine issue limiting COAL or if I can fiddle with a bit.

Using this technique, I can usually get a rig to shoot with two/three trips to the range. Just my technique, feel free to laugh me out of the stadium!

 

[LongBomber]

Without the reloading practice you won't develop the load to the same extent as the tuning will get lost in the noise.

I see guys asking for help interpreting their ladder tests all the time, many of the tests have enough noise in the data to be useless. Thats not a function of ladder or satterlee tests not working, it seems to be a function of the loading practices not being precise enough to create the data you are looking for.

If you really want to develop the best load possible you must control all the variables that you can as tight as you can. Then tune from there.

If I am going to do a ladder or satterlee test, normally I would do a ladder shot at 500y and past the labradar, I have bullets for the test weight and bearing surface sorted, once fired cases fully prepped and matched together and weigh charges down as fine as I can. That usually will give me a ladder with readable results. I never worry about sd at all, but I like my 20+ shot es to be under 20fps.