Michael Eichele
Well-Known Member
DF, I also shrare your enthusiasm about the original Mk4. I still use a 10x M1 to this day and is still one of my all time favorites.
Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspective
- Thread starter OnTarget
- Start date
Help Support Long Range Hunting Forum
Re: Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspecti
If I lived in Europe, there's no question that I'd own S&B. They are affordable over there.
However, the exchange rate to the US is such that the S&B's are simply over-priced here. If you were getting three times the scope, at 3000 dollars for an S&B versus 1000 dollars for a Leupold, you could still justify the S&B. But you're not getting anywhere near three times the scope...
I think Nightforce has the best scope for the best price in America. The tubes and lenses are made in Japan, and the scopes and their internal structure is made in Idaho, and assembled there. For around 1200 to 1400 dollars you can have a tougher scope than the Schmidt and Bender, and you've saved a considerable amount of money due to the difference in the exchange rate. I will grant you that the S&B's optical coatings provide a more appealing image to many people's eyes, but scopes are about aiming shots, not glassing the field. I'd rather have the Nightforce and it's unquestionable ruggedness over a scope of lesser construction which happened to have "sexy glass." /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Many folks believe that if something from Europe costs more in America, it must be better. Not true. The Lexus automobiles from Japan have beaten Mercedes at their own game, and have outperformed them in every arena for the last several years--quality being first among the categories where Lexus really shines.
I don't squeeze up to Jap stuff either. I'm just calling a spade a spade here. Don't delude yourselves into believing that just because it costs more that it's actually better. Often, it isn't.
Dan
If I lived in Europe, there's no question that I'd own S&B. They are affordable over there.
However, the exchange rate to the US is such that the S&B's are simply over-priced here. If you were getting three times the scope, at 3000 dollars for an S&B versus 1000 dollars for a Leupold, you could still justify the S&B. But you're not getting anywhere near three times the scope...
I think Nightforce has the best scope for the best price in America. The tubes and lenses are made in Japan, and the scopes and their internal structure is made in Idaho, and assembled there. For around 1200 to 1400 dollars you can have a tougher scope than the Schmidt and Bender, and you've saved a considerable amount of money due to the difference in the exchange rate. I will grant you that the S&B's optical coatings provide a more appealing image to many people's eyes, but scopes are about aiming shots, not glassing the field. I'd rather have the Nightforce and it's unquestionable ruggedness over a scope of lesser construction which happened to have "sexy glass." /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Many folks believe that if something from Europe costs more in America, it must be better. Not true. The Lexus automobiles from Japan have beaten Mercedes at their own game, and have outperformed them in every arena for the last several years--quality being first among the categories where Lexus really shines.
I don't squeeze up to Jap stuff either. I'm just calling a spade a spade here. Don't delude yourselves into believing that just because it costs more that it's actually better. Often, it isn't.
Dan
Re: Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspecti
I have been fortunate to own some highend telescopes. I owned a Astro-physics 155mm F/7 oil spaced triplet apochromatic refractor up to a couple of weeks ago. In the world of telescopes Astro-physics has an almost cult following, if you place an order today you will be on the waiting list for a minimum of 6 years. The most recent allocated run cost $8,500 people will buy this scope and after using it a couple of times will sell it on the secondary market for $12-14k, thats right they make $4-5k and have the use of the scope for a while and some owners keep them for good. In 1994 this same company produced the 8" version of the above scope and the estimates are that less than two dozen were made at the time they were $12,500 this by the way is for the OTA (optical tube assembly) or telescope tube & lens alone no mount (thats another $9,400) and no tripod. I have an aquantance who has one and when I saw it setting on the mount and moveable pier in his garage it stopped me in my tracks, because at present they are selling for $40-60k. So I had the 6" version and two years ago Orion came out with an 80mm version that was touted as an apochromatic made in China for $500 it was scoffed at by the apochromatic crowd as not possibly being of APO quality - until it was tested and bought by people and I was one. About three weeks ago the very last time I viewed with the AP 155 I was viewing Saturn non-stop for almost an hour at powers of 150x up to 271x and I can tell you that yes I could see more detail and it was brighter (for every doubling of aperture there is a quadrupling of light gathering) than the Orion 80ED. The Orion 80ED is so good that I have seen one manufacturer who was making an 80mm APO priced at $2800 stop producing this particular configuration. Although the 155mm is certainly impressive it's not $9k impressive and thats what I sold it for. Now the differences in my opinion by the top tier scope manufactures is even more miniscule. Lets look at some realities Nikon, S&B, and Leupold all of their tubes are made out of aircraft grade aluminum there might be a difference in the thickness, but I doubt it will be much; the lenses are all multicoated, the mechanics may differ somewhat, but again it has to be small or as I said the inferior version is going to be knocked out of the top tier market. I would be willing to bet it is very common as the earlier post mentions that someone with less expensive hardware who is "experienced" to outshoot someone with more expensive gear that is less experienced. All things being eqaul when the guy who is experienced moves up to the ultra highend I doubt his performance will improve appreciably because he was already using good optics to begin with. As far as ruggedness if your climbing a mountain and you drop your rifle I wouldn't feel overly confident about the scope being 'zeroed' still, but I know if the scope was really damaged and I believe S&B's will break just like anything; I know that this is one area where Leupold and Nikon excel is their repair and/or replacement warranty which is far superior to S&B. Again, if Leupold, Nikon couldn't handle the punishment and it was happening consistently then they wouldn't be selling the quantity of scopes that they do.
I've got no problem with S&B in fact, I plan to buy one although I plan on it being an extra clean used one so that if I find there is the negligable difference that I believe there is I can resell it and someone else will have taken the hit on the depreciated value.
So if someone has a 4-16x50 to sell or a 3-12x50 or maybe a 3-12x42 let me know it needs to be reasonable in price. Remember I saw a non-parallax PMII 3-12x50 for $1400 and it was as close to new as your going to get.
I agree I never regret buying the best (that AP 155 cost me $5k so I came out ok) as long as it "really offers an appreciable difference" other than removing more money from my wallet. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Here's a couple of links to what the AP 155 is capable from an imaging perspective, imaging is what they are really known for: http://www.robgendlerastropics.com/OriondeepfieldL.html
http://www.robgendlerastropics.com/M42mosaicNM.html
Here's a little imaging setup that runs close to $50k:
http://www.robgendlerastropics.com/Observatory.html
Finally a favorite:
http://www.starryscapes.com/nebula/rho_ophiuchus.html
When your out on your next hunt it might give you a little different perspective on the sky above.
I have been fortunate to own some highend telescopes. I owned a Astro-physics 155mm F/7 oil spaced triplet apochromatic refractor up to a couple of weeks ago. In the world of telescopes Astro-physics has an almost cult following, if you place an order today you will be on the waiting list for a minimum of 6 years. The most recent allocated run cost $8,500 people will buy this scope and after using it a couple of times will sell it on the secondary market for $12-14k, thats right they make $4-5k and have the use of the scope for a while and some owners keep them for good. In 1994 this same company produced the 8" version of the above scope and the estimates are that less than two dozen were made at the time they were $12,500 this by the way is for the OTA (optical tube assembly) or telescope tube & lens alone no mount (thats another $9,400) and no tripod. I have an aquantance who has one and when I saw it setting on the mount and moveable pier in his garage it stopped me in my tracks, because at present they are selling for $40-60k. So I had the 6" version and two years ago Orion came out with an 80mm version that was touted as an apochromatic made in China for $500 it was scoffed at by the apochromatic crowd as not possibly being of APO quality - until it was tested and bought by people and I was one. About three weeks ago the very last time I viewed with the AP 155 I was viewing Saturn non-stop for almost an hour at powers of 150x up to 271x and I can tell you that yes I could see more detail and it was brighter (for every doubling of aperture there is a quadrupling of light gathering) than the Orion 80ED. The Orion 80ED is so good that I have seen one manufacturer who was making an 80mm APO priced at $2800 stop producing this particular configuration. Although the 155mm is certainly impressive it's not $9k impressive and thats what I sold it for. Now the differences in my opinion by the top tier scope manufactures is even more miniscule. Lets look at some realities Nikon, S&B, and Leupold all of their tubes are made out of aircraft grade aluminum there might be a difference in the thickness, but I doubt it will be much; the lenses are all multicoated, the mechanics may differ somewhat, but again it has to be small or as I said the inferior version is going to be knocked out of the top tier market. I would be willing to bet it is very common as the earlier post mentions that someone with less expensive hardware who is "experienced" to outshoot someone with more expensive gear that is less experienced. All things being eqaul when the guy who is experienced moves up to the ultra highend I doubt his performance will improve appreciably because he was already using good optics to begin with. As far as ruggedness if your climbing a mountain and you drop your rifle I wouldn't feel overly confident about the scope being 'zeroed' still, but I know if the scope was really damaged and I believe S&B's will break just like anything; I know that this is one area where Leupold and Nikon excel is their repair and/or replacement warranty which is far superior to S&B. Again, if Leupold, Nikon couldn't handle the punishment and it was happening consistently then they wouldn't be selling the quantity of scopes that they do.
I've got no problem with S&B in fact, I plan to buy one although I plan on it being an extra clean used one so that if I find there is the negligable difference that I believe there is I can resell it and someone else will have taken the hit on the depreciated value.
So if someone has a 4-16x50 to sell or a 3-12x50 or maybe a 3-12x42 let me know it needs to be reasonable in price. Remember I saw a non-parallax PMII 3-12x50 for $1400 and it was as close to new as your going to get.
I agree I never regret buying the best (that AP 155 cost me $5k so I came out ok) as long as it "really offers an appreciable difference" other than removing more money from my wallet. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Here's a couple of links to what the AP 155 is capable from an imaging perspective, imaging is what they are really known for: http://www.robgendlerastropics.com/OriondeepfieldL.html
http://www.robgendlerastropics.com/M42mosaicNM.html
Here's a little imaging setup that runs close to $50k:
http://www.robgendlerastropics.com/Observatory.html
Finally a favorite:
http://www.starryscapes.com/nebula/rho_ophiuchus.html
When your out on your next hunt it might give you a little different perspective on the sky above.
Desert Fox
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2002
- Messages
- 439
Norhman, there's nothing wrong with US Optics. D-A was right, its the person pulling the trigger. Analyzing both our gear, I thought we're pretty even. We were both shooting 308. His was an HS Precision Tactical Rifle. Mine, a Gruning Precision built M24 type sniper rifle. He was shooting a handloaded 168 Sierra MK. I was shooting 155 grain Scenar. The difference between us boils down to how much precision shooting he have done in his life and how good was his handloads. Hitting a golf ball target with one shot at 500 meters was no easy task. He alluded later that his tactical training, according to him was irrelevant with this type of shooting. I had no formal training I told him. I just love to shoot and I shoot a lot.
Re: Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspecti
On Target, WOW is all I have to say, and I thought that my glass cost alot. Those are awesome pictures, makes you realize how small we are. Interesting write up about your gear also..
I've got a lot of leupolds, and jsut got my first nightforce. I will say, to my eyes, the NF has a crisper image than my vx-III's and my mk 4's. I was concerned when I ordered it that it wouldn't be better, but I took it out, and I think that it is. Will it make me shoot better compared to a leupold of the same power, I don't think so, but I sure like it.
So if someone wants to spend the money on one, who cares. I would not look down on anyone not shooting high end glass...unless it was a tasco. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
carry on...
On Target, WOW is all I have to say, and I thought that my glass cost alot. Those are awesome pictures, makes you realize how small we are. Interesting write up about your gear also..
I've got a lot of leupolds, and jsut got my first nightforce. I will say, to my eyes, the NF has a crisper image than my vx-III's and my mk 4's. I was concerned when I ordered it that it wouldn't be better, but I took it out, and I think that it is. Will it make me shoot better compared to a leupold of the same power, I don't think so, but I sure like it.
So if someone wants to spend the money on one, who cares. I would not look down on anyone not shooting high end glass...unless it was a tasco. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
carry on...
ceg1963
Well-Known Member
Re: Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspecti
IAN M is right on target.
We travel through life hitting various low and high points. Both in the realm of personal finances, and real exeperiences gained doing something.
When I started shooting back in the 70's my equipment selection "criteria" was tied directly to my pocket book. However, I was never mad at folks who had the dime to spend, and never faulted them for their ability to buy and use, the higher end stuff. Tasco and Bushnell were my go to scope products early on. As I became more proficient, I quickly realized how insufficient they were for my use.
Now all these years later, I own and use nothing but Leupold, Swarvoski, Zeiss, and Night Force. Leupold being on the low end of the Greene Scope Spectrum.
I have a saying, "You don't know, what you don't know". If close range deer hunting is your only game, then any scope will get it done, under most conditions.
But a good while back, I had the opportunity to gaze through a Zeiss on the range. Unfortunately, that was immediately after looking through one of my comparable Leupold. Honestly, I have never looked back. Even within the lines of scopes, not all are equal in quality.
I went from a Private E-1, to a Major in the Army, and yes, the pocket feel a bit heavier these days. And yes, the scopes are abit brighter these days as well! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
IAN M is right on target.
We travel through life hitting various low and high points. Both in the realm of personal finances, and real exeperiences gained doing something.
When I started shooting back in the 70's my equipment selection "criteria" was tied directly to my pocket book. However, I was never mad at folks who had the dime to spend, and never faulted them for their ability to buy and use, the higher end stuff. Tasco and Bushnell were my go to scope products early on. As I became more proficient, I quickly realized how insufficient they were for my use.
Now all these years later, I own and use nothing but Leupold, Swarvoski, Zeiss, and Night Force. Leupold being on the low end of the Greene Scope Spectrum.
I have a saying, "You don't know, what you don't know". If close range deer hunting is your only game, then any scope will get it done, under most conditions.
But a good while back, I had the opportunity to gaze through a Zeiss on the range. Unfortunately, that was immediately after looking through one of my comparable Leupold. Honestly, I have never looked back. Even within the lines of scopes, not all are equal in quality.
I went from a Private E-1, to a Major in the Army, and yes, the pocket feel a bit heavier these days. And yes, the scopes are abit brighter these days as well! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Jimm
Well-Known Member
Re: Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspecti
On Target ,
I just got through ordering the Meade electronic eyepiece . My plans are to record /view targets through my ext 90. Then I see your post /pix........I am still giggling at myself ( thought I was breaking new ground here /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif )
Anyways , thanks for the pix and viewpoint .
Jim B.
On Target ,
I just got through ordering the Meade electronic eyepiece . My plans are to record /view targets through my ext 90. Then I see your post /pix........I am still giggling at myself ( thought I was breaking new ground here /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif )
Anyways , thanks for the pix and viewpoint .
Jim B.
Ballistic64
Well-Known Member
Re: Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspecti
I try to employ the same principal I use with most purchases.Buy the best you can afford and cry once.
I try to employ the same principal I use with most purchases.Buy the best you can afford and cry once.
Centre Punch
Well-Known Member
Re: Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspecti
green,
S&Bs are defineately NOT more afforable here in Europe, the price differential is similar to what you have in the US
I recently paid the equivalent of $1064 for a Leupold VariX 111 6.5-20x50 LRT fine duplex.
The S&B 3-12x50 PM11 costs $2280 and does not have the magnification i want, the 5-25x56 PM11 costs $2717.
Maybe not as expensive as they are in the US but none the less very expensive anyway.
Like i have said before, even if i had the money i still would not buy one, Leupold have all the magnification/features i want in a scope and are much better looking then S&B, especially the Original 16x MK4!!
Ian.
PS, we dont have a domestic automobile industry in Britain anymore apart a few small volume manufacturers and most of the goods sold in our shops are made in China.
We also do not have an ammunition industry, only Eley who make nothing but .22 rimfire
green,
S&Bs are defineately NOT more afforable here in Europe, the price differential is similar to what you have in the US
I recently paid the equivalent of $1064 for a Leupold VariX 111 6.5-20x50 LRT fine duplex.
The S&B 3-12x50 PM11 costs $2280 and does not have the magnification i want, the 5-25x56 PM11 costs $2717.
Maybe not as expensive as they are in the US but none the less very expensive anyway.
Like i have said before, even if i had the money i still would not buy one, Leupold have all the magnification/features i want in a scope and are much better looking then S&B, especially the Original 16x MK4!!
Ian.
PS, we dont have a domestic automobile industry in Britain anymore apart a few small volume manufacturers and most of the goods sold in our shops are made in China.
We also do not have an ammunition industry, only Eley who make nothing but .22 rimfire
Pete Lincoln
Well-Known Member
Re: Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspecti
On Target.
I'm going to speak to you Pete Lincoln, I've been to your website and your a gifted gunsmith and an accomplished hunter and you must be fairly intelligent to work with satellites.
Thankyou for the compliments.
"You have the ear of S&B as they have adopted some of your suggestions and if I remember corrrectly you have even suggested new reticle designs to them as well."
yes thats true, but its been an uphill struggle to get my innovation recognised.
"There is no disputing that S&B are fine makers of scopes and its got to fill you with some pride that they consult with and adopt some of your ideas."
Thats exactly what Hans Bender said when i suggested free scopes for life and a carribean cruise.
" "On the other hand some of your posts sound a like an advertisement for S&B. When I hear you say things like, 'just ask the US Marine Corps'
Advertisement.. no. i do not,contrary to what some may think, recieve any incentive or pay or anything free from S&B for promoting thier scopes. I get my scopes for personal use direct at trade price, infact i was more than a little miffed to recieve a bill for 280 euro for changing my 4-16x42 PMII from mildot to the P4 Fine, a reticle, that if it wasn't for my input, likely as not wouldn't exist.
I recomend S&B scopes, because from experience of 20 years in the firearms trade, the military etc, i have come to recognise a pattern of performance in the S&B scopes that simply cannot be matched by the rest. Ive owned about all of the rest, some where good, some where awfull, but none provided the value for money, ergonomics or darn right ruggedness of the S&B's, and if you compare the S&B to the Zeiss and Swarovski, the S&B is a bargain.
"I'm not doubting they are better, I have no idea the extreme conditions and testing that they were tested under, and I'm sure given the application S&B justifiably won the contract and I have no problem with the cost difference given the application and environment they will be subjected to."
niether have i, but squaddies can be rough, i suggest you nip over to snipershide and ask "AHO Boogershat" as he'd know more on that front than I.
"However, lets have a little perspective here Pete when was the last time you jumped out of a C130 at 20,000 feet with an oxygen tank in the dead of night behind enemy lines with a top notch Marine Corp squad?"
Never jumped with US Marines. otherwise, about 15 years ago.
"The Marines' application is life and death under ultra harsh conditions on top of that the Marines etc. want these scopes to function for many many years, look at how long the Unertl scopes have been used by the military. However the majority of the rest of us will never need to have this level of perfection and ruggedness for an infrequent hunt."
Infrequent hunt? Life and Death. every hunt is possible a life and death thing, at least as far as that magnificent game animal is concerned. i have the opertunity to hunt 10 months of the year, every day. I usualy wear a barrel out in my 30-06 every 18 months, ( which is the rifle i use most to hunt with) I demand the best from my equipment and although i'm not made of money, i am willing to pay for what i belive is the best
"If a person is a professional guide, if someone is hunting ultra dangerous game in Africa, or if you live in a state like Montana and hunt every weekend that the season is open then maybe S&B cost difference is justified. "
see above paragraph.
Pete when I hear you say you've had all these other brands such as Leupold fail on you in the field for example vs. S&B which hasn't I'm curious what your doing that you have had so many other non S&B scopes fail? Do you run through the woods deliberately banging these scopes into trees etc. until they fail? Do you take the scope off the rifle and use it as a hammer occasionally? I heard that was done with a US Optics scope and it didn't affect its operation. If Leupold and some of the other manufacturers were as bad as you sometimes portray them, they would be out of business
I place high demands on my equipment, i don't molly coddle my rifles, they ger transported a lot across borders, fly, i treat them as tools. I hunt day in day out, shoot at targets often, as i said, i shoot a 30-06 barrel out about every 18months and thats just one of the rifles i have and use my S&B scopes on.i often use rifles fitted with moderators, and i simply have had enough of problems with other brands, so i stick to what works for me. My choices are based on 20 years in the firearms trade, 10 in the military, personal use of scoped firearms, and of seeing disapointed customers bringing problem optics back for warranty work through one of the biggest privately owned hunting and accessory shops in Germany.
Yet year after year people take game with these lesser priced scopes, I mean when you take the shot in a Leupold, Weaver, Nikon or Pentax and it results in a good kill dead is dead, is it not?
certainly people use other scopes to good effect, but i refuse to use something that i know full well is from a brand that has let me down in the past, its the same with my cars, i will not buy a jeep, a renault or an opel ever again.
The commmon sense side of me looks at it this way, is it better to make 20% on a $2,000 scope (which is mid range for S&B as some of their scope are over $3k) or 20% on a $500 scope this isnt rocket science or in your case retasking a satellite, now is it? Frankly I dont know the margin on scopes maybe its 30-40%.
Yes, that is common business sence, and that is what you will get from most of the gun shop sales mena and women, who are just sale persons, they sell what needs selling to make the maximum profit,
Me i don't need to do that, i can sell you any scope you want, and i have sold leupolds and NXS and Ziess and Swarovski and others , if the customer insists on that particular brand, but i can only personaly recomend that which i know has never let me down. so what would you rather have? a recomendation from a spottey faces college kit salesman, who has never used a scope in anger in his life, and only is interested in selling that which fills his pay packet, or would you rather have a recomendation of some one who uses the same kit as he sells, can talk about it with conviction, and would seriouysly have trouble sleeping after selling some one a tasco to go lion hunting with.
I want to make one thing clear I have no problem if someone buys S&B and Pete if your the only dealer on the planet that sells them; I just think it needs to be pointed out that those who dont buy S&B aren't lepers and will have an extreme high probability of taking as much game and doing so reliably etc. as the next guy who has a S&B.
i never said folks who don't own S&B;'s where lepers, i have my opinions and i see no problem in expressing them, and if, through expressing my opinions i can save some one from going through the pain in the ***, the disapointment and money loss of buying less than was required, as believe me, i went through a long and expensive learning curve when it comes to optics.
anyway, i'm not politicaly correct and i believe i can say what i like, and i'm sure Ian didn't take any offence to me saying he needed his eyes tested,
and i certainly never meant any offence to any one and that should go without saying.
I read on another forum that some one was whinging about having a post on this thread removed. I don't know what the guy wrote, but i'm not bothered what folks write about me or too me, ive nothing to hide, nothing to gain.
If your happy with whatever scope you are using, good for you.
I'm more than happy with mine. and when the European civil war starts, ive got the kit that will last through it ha..
Ian, you'd be paying too much for the scope at the price you quoted. and you forgot Hull Cartridge.
just for a comparison.
a 4.5-14x50 M1 SF Leupold would cost you rrp of 1519 Euro here. you'd get it for 1450 is you looked about.
a 4-16x50 PMII paralax, S&B would cost you all of maximum 200 euro more if you looked about a bit..
I'm sorry, but for a difference of 200 euro, you get a hell of a lot more scope in the S&B.
The markup on optics here is about max 20%. Of that 20% the Gov't take 50% combined income tax, pensions tax, social security.
so of the 250-300 euro i earn on a 4-16x50PMII, i end up with 150 euro, and from that i have to pay the phone call to order it, the phone call to ask why isn't it delivered on time, the postage to me from the wholesaler.
so i make maybe 100 euro on a 1650 euro scope,
its the same on a Leupold or an NXS.
I can make more on Zeiss and Swarovski, but i don't like the ergonomics. and i don't recomend them because i don't use them.
regards to all, lepers alike..
Pete
On Target.
I'm going to speak to you Pete Lincoln, I've been to your website and your a gifted gunsmith and an accomplished hunter and you must be fairly intelligent to work with satellites.
Thankyou for the compliments.
"You have the ear of S&B as they have adopted some of your suggestions and if I remember corrrectly you have even suggested new reticle designs to them as well."
yes thats true, but its been an uphill struggle to get my innovation recognised.
"There is no disputing that S&B are fine makers of scopes and its got to fill you with some pride that they consult with and adopt some of your ideas."
Thats exactly what Hans Bender said when i suggested free scopes for life and a carribean cruise.
" "On the other hand some of your posts sound a like an advertisement for S&B. When I hear you say things like, 'just ask the US Marine Corps'
Advertisement.. no. i do not,contrary to what some may think, recieve any incentive or pay or anything free from S&B for promoting thier scopes. I get my scopes for personal use direct at trade price, infact i was more than a little miffed to recieve a bill for 280 euro for changing my 4-16x42 PMII from mildot to the P4 Fine, a reticle, that if it wasn't for my input, likely as not wouldn't exist.
I recomend S&B scopes, because from experience of 20 years in the firearms trade, the military etc, i have come to recognise a pattern of performance in the S&B scopes that simply cannot be matched by the rest. Ive owned about all of the rest, some where good, some where awfull, but none provided the value for money, ergonomics or darn right ruggedness of the S&B's, and if you compare the S&B to the Zeiss and Swarovski, the S&B is a bargain.
"I'm not doubting they are better, I have no idea the extreme conditions and testing that they were tested under, and I'm sure given the application S&B justifiably won the contract and I have no problem with the cost difference given the application and environment they will be subjected to."
niether have i, but squaddies can be rough, i suggest you nip over to snipershide and ask "AHO Boogershat" as he'd know more on that front than I.
"However, lets have a little perspective here Pete when was the last time you jumped out of a C130 at 20,000 feet with an oxygen tank in the dead of night behind enemy lines with a top notch Marine Corp squad?"
Never jumped with US Marines. otherwise, about 15 years ago.
"The Marines' application is life and death under ultra harsh conditions on top of that the Marines etc. want these scopes to function for many many years, look at how long the Unertl scopes have been used by the military. However the majority of the rest of us will never need to have this level of perfection and ruggedness for an infrequent hunt."
Infrequent hunt? Life and Death. every hunt is possible a life and death thing, at least as far as that magnificent game animal is concerned. i have the opertunity to hunt 10 months of the year, every day. I usualy wear a barrel out in my 30-06 every 18 months, ( which is the rifle i use most to hunt with) I demand the best from my equipment and although i'm not made of money, i am willing to pay for what i belive is the best
"If a person is a professional guide, if someone is hunting ultra dangerous game in Africa, or if you live in a state like Montana and hunt every weekend that the season is open then maybe S&B cost difference is justified. "
see above paragraph.
Pete when I hear you say you've had all these other brands such as Leupold fail on you in the field for example vs. S&B which hasn't I'm curious what your doing that you have had so many other non S&B scopes fail? Do you run through the woods deliberately banging these scopes into trees etc. until they fail? Do you take the scope off the rifle and use it as a hammer occasionally? I heard that was done with a US Optics scope and it didn't affect its operation. If Leupold and some of the other manufacturers were as bad as you sometimes portray them, they would be out of business
I place high demands on my equipment, i don't molly coddle my rifles, they ger transported a lot across borders, fly, i treat them as tools. I hunt day in day out, shoot at targets often, as i said, i shoot a 30-06 barrel out about every 18months and thats just one of the rifles i have and use my S&B scopes on.i often use rifles fitted with moderators, and i simply have had enough of problems with other brands, so i stick to what works for me. My choices are based on 20 years in the firearms trade, 10 in the military, personal use of scoped firearms, and of seeing disapointed customers bringing problem optics back for warranty work through one of the biggest privately owned hunting and accessory shops in Germany.
Yet year after year people take game with these lesser priced scopes, I mean when you take the shot in a Leupold, Weaver, Nikon or Pentax and it results in a good kill dead is dead, is it not?
certainly people use other scopes to good effect, but i refuse to use something that i know full well is from a brand that has let me down in the past, its the same with my cars, i will not buy a jeep, a renault or an opel ever again.
The commmon sense side of me looks at it this way, is it better to make 20% on a $2,000 scope (which is mid range for S&B as some of their scope are over $3k) or 20% on a $500 scope this isnt rocket science or in your case retasking a satellite, now is it? Frankly I dont know the margin on scopes maybe its 30-40%.
Yes, that is common business sence, and that is what you will get from most of the gun shop sales mena and women, who are just sale persons, they sell what needs selling to make the maximum profit,
Me i don't need to do that, i can sell you any scope you want, and i have sold leupolds and NXS and Ziess and Swarovski and others , if the customer insists on that particular brand, but i can only personaly recomend that which i know has never let me down. so what would you rather have? a recomendation from a spottey faces college kit salesman, who has never used a scope in anger in his life, and only is interested in selling that which fills his pay packet, or would you rather have a recomendation of some one who uses the same kit as he sells, can talk about it with conviction, and would seriouysly have trouble sleeping after selling some one a tasco to go lion hunting with.
I want to make one thing clear I have no problem if someone buys S&B and Pete if your the only dealer on the planet that sells them; I just think it needs to be pointed out that those who dont buy S&B aren't lepers and will have an extreme high probability of taking as much game and doing so reliably etc. as the next guy who has a S&B.
i never said folks who don't own S&B;'s where lepers, i have my opinions and i see no problem in expressing them, and if, through expressing my opinions i can save some one from going through the pain in the ***, the disapointment and money loss of buying less than was required, as believe me, i went through a long and expensive learning curve when it comes to optics.
anyway, i'm not politicaly correct and i believe i can say what i like, and i'm sure Ian didn't take any offence to me saying he needed his eyes tested,
and i certainly never meant any offence to any one and that should go without saying.
I read on another forum that some one was whinging about having a post on this thread removed. I don't know what the guy wrote, but i'm not bothered what folks write about me or too me, ive nothing to hide, nothing to gain.
If your happy with whatever scope you are using, good for you.
I'm more than happy with mine. and when the European civil war starts, ive got the kit that will last through it ha..
Ian, you'd be paying too much for the scope at the price you quoted. and you forgot Hull Cartridge.
just for a comparison.
a 4.5-14x50 M1 SF Leupold would cost you rrp of 1519 Euro here. you'd get it for 1450 is you looked about.
a 4-16x50 PMII paralax, S&B would cost you all of maximum 200 euro more if you looked about a bit..
I'm sorry, but for a difference of 200 euro, you get a hell of a lot more scope in the S&B.
The markup on optics here is about max 20%. Of that 20% the Gov't take 50% combined income tax, pensions tax, social security.
so of the 250-300 euro i earn on a 4-16x50PMII, i end up with 150 euro, and from that i have to pay the phone call to order it, the phone call to ask why isn't it delivered on time, the postage to me from the wholesaler.
so i make maybe 100 euro on a 1650 euro scope,
its the same on a Leupold or an NXS.
I can make more on Zeiss and Swarovski, but i don't like the ergonomics. and i don't recomend them because i don't use them.
regards to all, lepers alike..
Pete
Re: Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspecti
Im sitting here with a S&B Klassik 1.5-6x42 in my hands.. I got in a package deal. My plan was to sell it, and buy another scope. Just to save some money. I have been looking through it now for two days.. and ****, wont you belive it. Im keeping it. It is really that nice!
My only problem is, I scratched it when I mounted it. So I have small cut under the occular bell.. I was mad as hell, but now, Im happy I made the first cut, and not by dropping it on a rock.
Im sitting here with a S&B Klassik 1.5-6x42 in my hands.. I got in a package deal. My plan was to sell it, and buy another scope. Just to save some money. I have been looking through it now for two days.. and ****, wont you belive it. Im keeping it. It is really that nice!
My only problem is, I scratched it when I mounted it. So I have small cut under the occular bell.. I was mad as hell, but now, Im happy I made the first cut, and not by dropping it on a rock.
Re: Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspecti
[ QUOTE ]
When I started shooting back in the 70's my equipment selection "criteria" was tied directly to my pocket book. However, I was never mad at folks who had the dime to spend, and never faulted them for their ability to buy and use, the higher end stuff. Tasco and Bushnell were my go to scope products early on. As I became more proficient, I quickly realized how insufficient they were for my use.
Now all these years later, I own and use nothing but Leupold, Swarvoski, Zeiss, and Night Force. Leupold being on the low end of the Greene Scope Spectrum.
I have a saying, "You don't know, what you don't know". If close range deer hunting is your only game, then any scope will get it done, under most conditions.
But a good while back, I had the opportunity to gaze through a Zeiss on the range. Unfortunately, that was immediately after looking through one of my comparable Leupold. Honestly, I have never looked back. Even within the lines of scopes, not all are equal in quality.
I went from a Private E-1, to a Major in the Army, and yes, the pocket feel a bit heavier these days. And yes, the scopes are abit brighter these days as well! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
[/ QUOTE ]I really wanted to emphasize that you can have an enjoyable and reliable hunting experience even if you don't own a S&B scope. I have emailed a couple of people who owned S&B scopes and they were too much of a stretch for their pocketbooks and were forced to sell them. I just wanted to counter the perception that I sometimes am left with from Pete that if you don't own S&B your rollling the dice from a reliability perspective. Good optics are essential I have a Zeiss Diascope 65 and I like its portability personally I think the Leica Televid 77 APO is better especially if your interested in the stars like I am (but it is heavier and larger for hunting), but for that same money I can use the Orion 80ED and have a quality german equatorial mount with tracking capability so if I have to go in the house for 10 minutes I dont have to reacquire my target. Unfortunately their is an inverse relationship as the ability of our eyes to capture the photons is decreased as our pupil dialates less as we get older and on the other hand we are better able as we age to afford the expensive glass. So if the maximum dialation for your 50 year old eyes is 5mm whereas when you were 20 it was 7mm then if the maximum exit pupil factor for a given magnification on your highend 56mm scope is 4.7mm @ 12x and 14.7mm at 3x there is diminished value (I'm not saying no value) for the older more affluent shooter as it's akin to trying to get 50 cent piece through a quarter slot if you will. http://www.zeiss.com/C1256BCF0020BE5F/?Open It's for this very reason you can get up in the middle of the night and maneuver around the house with no problem with no lights on when your 20 and at 50 its a different situation all together.
Pete thanks for posting, you made some really good points and you have a tremendous amount of hunting experience. I have a couple of questions I would PM you, but your answers will benefit all. First, how in the world does your wife allow you to hunt 10 months out of the year? Do many of your hunts involve being a paid hunting guide or do you strictly hunt for your personal pleasure in your free time only? Are most of your hunts local with an occasional hunt further away that doesnt allow you to be home. Your wife has to be the most understanding woman on the face of the earth or you know something I think alot of people would like to be in on.
Ok, now specifically about scopes you've made a convincing case about the reliability/quality of S&B scopes and how the price difference is justified. Would you mind mentioning "specifically" the other brands and models that have given you problems and what the specific problems were and how they happened? I think this is very important as their are people who go on hunts that are in very treacherous territory and others probably like myself that will never go on a hunt for mountain sheep because I hunt to infrequently and know that I am not in the physical condition to enjoy a hunt that strenuous. So it would be helpful to know the situation you were in and the event that caused a scope to fail and as I said if you can provide the make/model that would be helpful as well. It doesn't have to be every scope that has ever failed you but a few of the highlights are appreciated.
I would like some clarification on the S&B line in the variable power scopes there are the Classic, Professional Hunter, Zenith and the PMII. Since the PMII is the most expensive when is it necessary for a hunter to have the PMII line over the other lines? Since the 3-12x50 is available in all four lines (which I think is overkill) what are the top two lines you prefer and why? I think a 4-16x is the more versatile over a 3-12x.
Of course, you can answer as little or as much as you choose and have time for.
By the way, if I were you I would be a little bent out of shape if S&B billed me for a reticle change, being the S&B advocate that you are. Maybe you should forward this thread to them, because even though they make excellent scopes from a business standpoint in my opinion they are being 'penny wise and pound foolish' as your probably one of their strongest advocates and frankly for what they charge for their scopes they need all the help they can get. Thank you in advance for your reply and for everyone else that has responded to this thread.
[ QUOTE ]
When I started shooting back in the 70's my equipment selection "criteria" was tied directly to my pocket book. However, I was never mad at folks who had the dime to spend, and never faulted them for their ability to buy and use, the higher end stuff. Tasco and Bushnell were my go to scope products early on. As I became more proficient, I quickly realized how insufficient they were for my use.
Now all these years later, I own and use nothing but Leupold, Swarvoski, Zeiss, and Night Force. Leupold being on the low end of the Greene Scope Spectrum.
I have a saying, "You don't know, what you don't know". If close range deer hunting is your only game, then any scope will get it done, under most conditions.
But a good while back, I had the opportunity to gaze through a Zeiss on the range. Unfortunately, that was immediately after looking through one of my comparable Leupold. Honestly, I have never looked back. Even within the lines of scopes, not all are equal in quality.
I went from a Private E-1, to a Major in the Army, and yes, the pocket feel a bit heavier these days. And yes, the scopes are abit brighter these days as well! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
[/ QUOTE ]I really wanted to emphasize that you can have an enjoyable and reliable hunting experience even if you don't own a S&B scope. I have emailed a couple of people who owned S&B scopes and they were too much of a stretch for their pocketbooks and were forced to sell them. I just wanted to counter the perception that I sometimes am left with from Pete that if you don't own S&B your rollling the dice from a reliability perspective. Good optics are essential I have a Zeiss Diascope 65 and I like its portability personally I think the Leica Televid 77 APO is better especially if your interested in the stars like I am (but it is heavier and larger for hunting), but for that same money I can use the Orion 80ED and have a quality german equatorial mount with tracking capability so if I have to go in the house for 10 minutes I dont have to reacquire my target. Unfortunately their is an inverse relationship as the ability of our eyes to capture the photons is decreased as our pupil dialates less as we get older and on the other hand we are better able as we age to afford the expensive glass. So if the maximum dialation for your 50 year old eyes is 5mm whereas when you were 20 it was 7mm then if the maximum exit pupil factor for a given magnification on your highend 56mm scope is 4.7mm @ 12x and 14.7mm at 3x there is diminished value (I'm not saying no value) for the older more affluent shooter as it's akin to trying to get 50 cent piece through a quarter slot if you will. http://www.zeiss.com/C1256BCF0020BE5F/?Open It's for this very reason you can get up in the middle of the night and maneuver around the house with no problem with no lights on when your 20 and at 50 its a different situation all together.
Pete thanks for posting, you made some really good points and you have a tremendous amount of hunting experience. I have a couple of questions I would PM you, but your answers will benefit all. First, how in the world does your wife allow you to hunt 10 months out of the year? Do many of your hunts involve being a paid hunting guide or do you strictly hunt for your personal pleasure in your free time only? Are most of your hunts local with an occasional hunt further away that doesnt allow you to be home. Your wife has to be the most understanding woman on the face of the earth or you know something I think alot of people would like to be in on.
Ok, now specifically about scopes you've made a convincing case about the reliability/quality of S&B scopes and how the price difference is justified. Would you mind mentioning "specifically" the other brands and models that have given you problems and what the specific problems were and how they happened? I think this is very important as their are people who go on hunts that are in very treacherous territory and others probably like myself that will never go on a hunt for mountain sheep because I hunt to infrequently and know that I am not in the physical condition to enjoy a hunt that strenuous. So it would be helpful to know the situation you were in and the event that caused a scope to fail and as I said if you can provide the make/model that would be helpful as well. It doesn't have to be every scope that has ever failed you but a few of the highlights are appreciated.
I would like some clarification on the S&B line in the variable power scopes there are the Classic, Professional Hunter, Zenith and the PMII. Since the PMII is the most expensive when is it necessary for a hunter to have the PMII line over the other lines? Since the 3-12x50 is available in all four lines (which I think is overkill) what are the top two lines you prefer and why? I think a 4-16x is the more versatile over a 3-12x.
Of course, you can answer as little or as much as you choose and have time for.
By the way, if I were you I would be a little bent out of shape if S&B billed me for a reticle change, being the S&B advocate that you are. Maybe you should forward this thread to them, because even though they make excellent scopes from a business standpoint in my opinion they are being 'penny wise and pound foolish' as your probably one of their strongest advocates and frankly for what they charge for their scopes they need all the help they can get. Thank you in advance for your reply and for everyone else that has responded to this thread.
Pete Lincoln
Well-Known Member
Re: Ultra highend optics: Schmidt Bender vs. others and some perspecti
On Target. you'd be at home with a load of the guys and gals i work with at the space agency, some very professional star gazers here. We often nip down to the Starkenburg Observatory to have a butchers at the stars.
I'll go through the points of your last post,
First i'll state again, i certainly don't look down on anyone who doesn't use a S&B.. S&B are classed as a cheaper, less "in" (certrainly pre zenith) scope here in Germany, the Germans are very pro zeiss and swarovski.
I sometimes am left with from Pete that if you don't own S&B your rollling the dice from a reliability perspective.
well. from my past experience that would seem to be true, but them maybe ive been unlucky with scopes. I also know for a fact that scopes coming back through my mates shop, over a period of say 10 years, S&B where the lowest rate of warranty returns.
Maybe i'm going over kill, maybe i'm biased and maybe i expect to much. But i want to be able to rely on my kit.
Pete thanks for posting, you made some really good points and you have a tremendous amount of hunting experience. I have a couple of questions I would PM you, but your answers will benefit all. First, how in the world does your wife allow you to hunt 10 months out of the year? Do many of your hunts involve being a paid hunting guide or do you strictly hunt for your personal pleasure in your free time only? Are most of your hunts local with an occasional hunt further away that doesnt allow you to be home. Your wife has to be the most understanding woman on the face of the earth or you know something I think alot of people would like to be in on.
Well my wife is very understanding, infact she is great, she gets time to take trips with her sister, she paints, and has other interests, I hunt and build rifles, she is happy about that, she is for keeps, if she said give up your hunting tommorow, i would.
I work shifts at the space agency. I work 6 days, get 5 off. ( last 3 years it was work 4-5 get 5-7 off) ive got my own patch of land rented from the state. I can hunt there every day of the year from May 1st to 28th Feb. during a 6 day shift cycle in past years ive hunted 5 days. its a 15 min drive from work to hunt, and i have, on several occasions, taken my 2 hour meal break and gone hunting. I take part in several organised driven hunts per year, usualy have 1 to 2 trips per year to other countries to hunt, travel to hunt with friends in Germany (and other countries) in several areas, i'm also a member ( the longest) of the Garrison Hunting club (we hunt the training areas) and am a member of the village hunting club. I can leave the house and hunt deer within 800m. we can see deer from my boys bed room window (unfortunately on neighbours ground).
I have more opertunities to hunt than time to do it in even though i get 6 annual weeks vacation, plus 1 weeks veterans vacation. plus time of in leu for overtime.
I have, over the last 10 years done some guideing work, but my rifle business has realy done away with the time to do that.
The one thing ive learned about relationships is that if you put in more than you take out, things tend to work.
The way the rifle business is goung, my hunting is suffering, but i'm probably going to go more for quality rather than quantity in the future.
Scopes
"specifically" the other brands and models that have given you problems and what the specific problems were and how they happened?
From Personal Use.
Schmidt & bender, i had a 2.5-10x56, the adjustment only adjusted after tapping scope or making a shot particularly in cold weather, old scope,internal lubricant was replaced and the problem disapeared.
Leupold.variouse types. 6.5-20x40 VX III EFR.tracking problems and magnification ring siezed 6.5-20x50 Long Range tracking problems, 3.5-10x50,VXIII lense splintered inside scope 4.5-14x50. , tracking problems, inside coating of tube flaking off, i had 1 fogged, cant remember which. 1 broken reticle in VXII, rounded off grub screws in elevation turret, (soft) on a couple.
never had problem with a M3, but the glass isn't as good as European stuff.
Doctor Optic 2.5-10x48, tracking problems, inside coating coming adrift, failed lense cement. ( had same scope with Frankonia markings on it and had no problems at all)
Swarovski, ,6x42 Broken reticle, 6-24x50PVS wandering zero, tracking problems. rubber ring on magnification came unstuck,
US Optics, turrets froze, shifting zero.
Springfield Armoury,, wandering zero, adjustment not matching actual movement on target, magnification adjustment seized.
Hakko, same as above (same factory) but inability to hold a zero.
Nikko Sterling, broken reticle. tracking problems.
Nightforce NXS, wandering zero through magnification changes, tracking problems. and i hate that the whole of the rear end turns when you up and down the X's but thats not actualy a failure,
Tasco, tube came apart, wandering zero, adjustment not matching actual movement. bent tube after a fat assed labrador jumped on it in the back of a landrover, beats me how that happened.
Micro Dot, reticle illumination failure, wandering zero through magnification range.
Weaver, internals came loose and rattled, same happened on a Redfield.
Luger, internals rattled.
Burris, wandering zero through mag range.
Bushnell wandering zero through mag range.
Pecar, fogged.
Thats all from personal use and is by no means complete, coming through my mates shop, we saw a fair few reticle illumination problems, most of the problems where inconsistent adjustments and wandering zero, occasional loose internals. scopes from many types, expensive and cheap suffered from failure in one degree or another.
Scopes i consider reliable, from my own personal use.
Kahles. Nikkon, from limited experience IOR. Hensold. S&B.
I'd use an NXS for target and match work.
with regards to the S&B line of scopes.
The PH, Long Range, Varmint etc is basicaly all the same scope, but has a name, that varies form country to country depending on features.
The Classic line is the line of hunting scopes that have been produced now for over 10 years, and are pre zenith.
the zenith line is the newest lkine of scopes and have that distinctibe wine bottle shape, newer coating technology and are probably one of the most excellent hunting scopes on the market,.
The PMII's,. Police / Marksman / Military.
Id suggest the need for a PMII if you want extra tough reliability, large, single turn adjustment range, rock solid performance, the best tactical range of scopes available today IMHO. A Sniper scope, is the ultimate in hunting scopes and lets not forget which board we are on here,, www.longrangehunting.com and pushing the envelope is the name of the game, we aren't talking shooting a deer with Grandads 30-30 in the top 40 acre field, we are talking, precision long range marksmanship, many of the guys on here have custom precision rifles,several in specialised calibers, and in my opinion, why would one not want to top those rifles with the best long range optics money can buy.
For general hunting purposes, i'd be happy with any S&B scope. The new zenith line has slightly better coatings and optical performance. A real bargain is the Hungarian manufactured range, unfortunately all still fixed power, i could possible see the classic line moving to hungarian production, but that is only a personal thought and ive no indication of it happening, it would just make sense to me.
favorite?
give me a 1.5-6x42 Zenith flash dot (add mildots and adjustable turrets) and a 4-16x50 PMII and i have 2 scopes i can hunt anything with, man or beast any where in the world in any situation,
By the way, if I were you I would be a little bent out of shape if S&B billed me for a reticle change, being the S&B advocate that you are. Maybe you should forward this thread to them, because even though they make excellent scopes from a business standpoint in my opinion they are being 'penny wise and pound foolish' as your probably one of their strongest advocates and frankly for what they charge for their scopes they need all the help they can get.
I agree with you 100% on that comment mate.
but ref the last sentence,shopping around for optics tends to find bargains.
Hope ive answered your questions,
best regards
pete
On Target. you'd be at home with a load of the guys and gals i work with at the space agency, some very professional star gazers here. We often nip down to the Starkenburg Observatory to have a butchers at the stars.
I'll go through the points of your last post,
First i'll state again, i certainly don't look down on anyone who doesn't use a S&B.. S&B are classed as a cheaper, less "in" (certrainly pre zenith) scope here in Germany, the Germans are very pro zeiss and swarovski.
I sometimes am left with from Pete that if you don't own S&B your rollling the dice from a reliability perspective.
well. from my past experience that would seem to be true, but them maybe ive been unlucky with scopes. I also know for a fact that scopes coming back through my mates shop, over a period of say 10 years, S&B where the lowest rate of warranty returns.
Maybe i'm going over kill, maybe i'm biased and maybe i expect to much. But i want to be able to rely on my kit.
Pete thanks for posting, you made some really good points and you have a tremendous amount of hunting experience. I have a couple of questions I would PM you, but your answers will benefit all. First, how in the world does your wife allow you to hunt 10 months out of the year? Do many of your hunts involve being a paid hunting guide or do you strictly hunt for your personal pleasure in your free time only? Are most of your hunts local with an occasional hunt further away that doesnt allow you to be home. Your wife has to be the most understanding woman on the face of the earth or you know something I think alot of people would like to be in on.
Well my wife is very understanding, infact she is great, she gets time to take trips with her sister, she paints, and has other interests, I hunt and build rifles, she is happy about that, she is for keeps, if she said give up your hunting tommorow, i would.
I work shifts at the space agency. I work 6 days, get 5 off. ( last 3 years it was work 4-5 get 5-7 off) ive got my own patch of land rented from the state. I can hunt there every day of the year from May 1st to 28th Feb. during a 6 day shift cycle in past years ive hunted 5 days. its a 15 min drive from work to hunt, and i have, on several occasions, taken my 2 hour meal break and gone hunting. I take part in several organised driven hunts per year, usualy have 1 to 2 trips per year to other countries to hunt, travel to hunt with friends in Germany (and other countries) in several areas, i'm also a member ( the longest) of the Garrison Hunting club (we hunt the training areas) and am a member of the village hunting club. I can leave the house and hunt deer within 800m. we can see deer from my boys bed room window (unfortunately on neighbours ground).
I have more opertunities to hunt than time to do it in even though i get 6 annual weeks vacation, plus 1 weeks veterans vacation. plus time of in leu for overtime.
I have, over the last 10 years done some guideing work, but my rifle business has realy done away with the time to do that.
The one thing ive learned about relationships is that if you put in more than you take out, things tend to work.
The way the rifle business is goung, my hunting is suffering, but i'm probably going to go more for quality rather than quantity in the future.
Scopes
"specifically" the other brands and models that have given you problems and what the specific problems were and how they happened?
From Personal Use.
Schmidt & bender, i had a 2.5-10x56, the adjustment only adjusted after tapping scope or making a shot particularly in cold weather, old scope,internal lubricant was replaced and the problem disapeared.
Leupold.variouse types. 6.5-20x40 VX III EFR.tracking problems and magnification ring siezed 6.5-20x50 Long Range tracking problems, 3.5-10x50,VXIII lense splintered inside scope 4.5-14x50. , tracking problems, inside coating of tube flaking off, i had 1 fogged, cant remember which. 1 broken reticle in VXII, rounded off grub screws in elevation turret, (soft) on a couple.
never had problem with a M3, but the glass isn't as good as European stuff.
Doctor Optic 2.5-10x48, tracking problems, inside coating coming adrift, failed lense cement. ( had same scope with Frankonia markings on it and had no problems at all)
Swarovski, ,6x42 Broken reticle, 6-24x50PVS wandering zero, tracking problems. rubber ring on magnification came unstuck,
US Optics, turrets froze, shifting zero.
Springfield Armoury,, wandering zero, adjustment not matching actual movement on target, magnification adjustment seized.
Hakko, same as above (same factory) but inability to hold a zero.
Nikko Sterling, broken reticle. tracking problems.
Nightforce NXS, wandering zero through magnification changes, tracking problems. and i hate that the whole of the rear end turns when you up and down the X's but thats not actualy a failure,
Tasco, tube came apart, wandering zero, adjustment not matching actual movement. bent tube after a fat assed labrador jumped on it in the back of a landrover, beats me how that happened.
Micro Dot, reticle illumination failure, wandering zero through magnification range.
Weaver, internals came loose and rattled, same happened on a Redfield.
Luger, internals rattled.
Burris, wandering zero through mag range.
Bushnell wandering zero through mag range.
Pecar, fogged.
Thats all from personal use and is by no means complete, coming through my mates shop, we saw a fair few reticle illumination problems, most of the problems where inconsistent adjustments and wandering zero, occasional loose internals. scopes from many types, expensive and cheap suffered from failure in one degree or another.
Scopes i consider reliable, from my own personal use.
Kahles. Nikkon, from limited experience IOR. Hensold. S&B.
I'd use an NXS for target and match work.
with regards to the S&B line of scopes.
The PH, Long Range, Varmint etc is basicaly all the same scope, but has a name, that varies form country to country depending on features.
The Classic line is the line of hunting scopes that have been produced now for over 10 years, and are pre zenith.
the zenith line is the newest lkine of scopes and have that distinctibe wine bottle shape, newer coating technology and are probably one of the most excellent hunting scopes on the market,.
The PMII's,. Police / Marksman / Military.
Id suggest the need for a PMII if you want extra tough reliability, large, single turn adjustment range, rock solid performance, the best tactical range of scopes available today IMHO. A Sniper scope, is the ultimate in hunting scopes and lets not forget which board we are on here,, www.longrangehunting.com and pushing the envelope is the name of the game, we aren't talking shooting a deer with Grandads 30-30 in the top 40 acre field, we are talking, precision long range marksmanship, many of the guys on here have custom precision rifles,several in specialised calibers, and in my opinion, why would one not want to top those rifles with the best long range optics money can buy.
For general hunting purposes, i'd be happy with any S&B scope. The new zenith line has slightly better coatings and optical performance. A real bargain is the Hungarian manufactured range, unfortunately all still fixed power, i could possible see the classic line moving to hungarian production, but that is only a personal thought and ive no indication of it happening, it would just make sense to me.
favorite?
give me a 1.5-6x42 Zenith flash dot (add mildots and adjustable turrets) and a 4-16x50 PMII and i have 2 scopes i can hunt anything with, man or beast any where in the world in any situation,
By the way, if I were you I would be a little bent out of shape if S&B billed me for a reticle change, being the S&B advocate that you are. Maybe you should forward this thread to them, because even though they make excellent scopes from a business standpoint in my opinion they are being 'penny wise and pound foolish' as your probably one of their strongest advocates and frankly for what they charge for their scopes they need all the help they can get.
I agree with you 100% on that comment mate.
but ref the last sentence,shopping around for optics tends to find bargains.
Hope ive answered your questions,
best regards
pete
