I have always been amazed that anyone thought bullets that were headed different directions at 100 yards would miraculously start curving towards the point of aim at longer distances. Anyone knowing physics knows this is absurd. "Aim small, miss small". When shooting at longer distances people often increase the magnification of their scopes, which has them "aiming small". Issues with parallax are also to be dealt with. Those are both SCOPE issues. If a gun will group at any distance, it can group at all distances (unless wind or other outside forces are at play).I think that is sound advice! but I will push back on the 100 yard grouping versus 200-300 plus yard groupings. This has been tested extensively and has not been validated. If the gun groups well at 200 or 300 yards it will group well at 100 yards. No bullets don't stabilize and shrink groups the farther they fly. Garbage in, Garbage out...
Now, if anyone, not calling you out, wants to disprove this? Please invite me to witness, Applied Ballistics will pay for you to discredit these claims. Free ammo, free trip etc... It has yet to be validated that groups group better at 200 yards plus. I learned this the hard way! Got my butt handed to me by Brian Litz. I met him at Berger one day when he was visiting.
What you guys will see with groups shrinking at distance is an issue of too much power on your optics, parallax, etc. At distance you are more focused on a finner (smaller) point of Aim, so you think your groups are shrinking, in reality you shot better. Power down your scopes or use a smaller target for your POA, like the triangle of a target, see picture below. My POA was the far orange triangle . Yes I got excited and pulled my 5th shot on my new 300 Norma barrel, yes it had zero break in done.... which goes to show is barrel break in really View attachment 356167 necessary... depends on your barrel, I haven't to do it, but that's another threadyes the POI is not my POA, if you shoot out your POA what are you aiming at?... just a friendly tip
Shot groupings
- Thread starter JMack
- Start date
Help Support Long Range Hunting Forum
cabelasken
Well-Known Member
I agree - I bought an x bolt in 280 AI last year before my elk hunt. I now have 3 of them !!!
Paulstarr
Well-Known Member
100 and 200 yd groups are pointless without validation of a chronograph especially for ranges over 600yds.
Mike Matteson
Well-Known Member
I never could figure how a group would get smaller at longer ranges. I can see that velocity or twist rate isn't enough to hold the group together at longer ranges. It does take more work in getting the shots off at longer ranges or you put more work into shots at longer ranges. I away felt and did some shooting out to 500yds to verify grouping and location of groups at different ranges. my groups were about 1/2" @ 100yds and about 3" @ 500yds. That as far as I shoot at that time. To me it was easy to figure out what my groups should be, and verified groups at those different ranges.
The other thing is if your rifles with the same type of configurations of bullets, that are running at about the same velocity. They all very much fly the same flight path down range. So I have stayed in those areas of velocities with the different rifles. I didn't have to get my head around on what the bullet path was to hit the target. At that time there wasn't anything out there, I called a range finder. I use my scope with duplex crosshairs to give me the range. It worked quite well.
At the same time if I couldn't get a rifle to group in the 1/2" area. I didn't like it. and didn't use it.
The other thing is if your rifles with the same type of configurations of bullets, that are running at about the same velocity. They all very much fly the same flight path down range. So I have stayed in those areas of velocities with the different rifles. I didn't have to get my head around on what the bullet path was to hit the target. At that time there wasn't anything out there, I called a range finder. I use my scope with duplex crosshairs to give me the range. It worked quite well.
At the same time if I couldn't get a rifle to group in the 1/2" area. I didn't like it. and didn't use it.
Paulstarr
Well-Known Member
If the velocity spread is within 20fps then the ammo will group out to 1000yds if not it may well be disappointing.It can improve up to 30/40 fps if velocities are over 3000 fps.
Mike Matteson
Well-Known Member
A chronograph really helps and probable pays for it's self. Otherwise more time at the range and shooting the different ranges to see where that bullet is going or doing. Today with the deal-a-range scopes it really helps.
Grumpy old man
Well-Known Member
Sometimes you get luck with a 2.800 chamber most times it's a longer col and eradic patterns project ! I haven't seen a factory gun except for one that shot that tight (1/4)moa like my customs
Paulstarr
Well-Known Member
Mike you are right a chrono will pay for itself and you freezer will prove it.
birddog 68
Well-Known Member
I'd be willing to bet a sleeve of large rifle primers if jmack loads up the same load and let's the barrel cool sufficiently between shots that third shot will be right near the other two. If he's doing his part. He says this is a hunting rifle and assuming he's not worried about 1000 yard shots. A chronograph is good info but I don't think necessary for MOST normal hunting ranges. (under 500 yards)
Mike Matteson
Well-Known Member
Velocities are the name of the game to a point. The ES & SD is what factors in at long ranges. From Bryan Litz: 20+fps not suitable for longer ranges. 5fps SD will give you approximately 1/2 MOA vertical dispersion at 1000yds.
Ucsdryder
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2016
- Messages
- 1,571
Maybe I'm a 1 off but if I'm shooting a group at 100 and I stack a couple in the same hole, I have a tendency to start putting pressure on myself to do it again. Seems like if it's a 3 shot group it's my 3rd shot, if it's a 5 shot group it's my 5th and so on.
Mike Matteson
Well-Known Member
From what I can see it's really gets into the ES/SD to get the groups to gather. I have been purchasing equipment like crazy in the last year to get myself into those very low ES/SD. There a lot of work on the cases that needed to be done to get there. From what I have read. Powder Temp Stability works into this too. I guess I was lucky I used mostly the powder that the Long Range Match Shooter use.
Paulstarr
Well-Known Member
Mike,consistancy of neck tension is a big factor in achieving low ES/SD figures.Annealing your brass is a big help is a big factor,I anneal my brass after every firing and if you use a chamber seating die with a arbor press you can really feel the bullet seating tension much easier then using a bench press.
