Is this where muzzleloading is going?!

[birddog 68]

The funniest part about the situation is a few years back people requested an early muzzleloader season for bucks and the PGC said no claiming that they couldn't sustain that level of harvest before the rut. Now archery is taking almost 50% of the bucks prior to the rut and they keep increasing the length of the archery season

Most archery shots are under 50 yards compared to a inline capable of shooting hundreds of yards. No comparison!
The game commission will never satisfy everyone so they try to give everyone a little something to keep them quiet.

 

[Rosebud]

The last generation born are ignorant. I didn't say stupid, although some my be. They have been dumbed down by equipment and electronics that they have no idea how it works, or how to fix it if it breaks. This was shown to me about a decade ago when my 25 year old son called. Dad, I'm on the by pass with a flat tire and I'll be late to work. me, well get out the jack and lug wrench and change it. Him, I don't know how, or where any of that stuff is. Me, what, that's simple, then I thought, he's never seen it done. This is the you tube generation. Had to drop everything I was doing drive thirty miles to show him how to change a tire. He knows how to now. I informed him there was a manual in the glove box that showed how things work on his car. Him, oh wow, I never knew that. . Older generation takes for granted that this stuff is common knowledge. But it's not to this group of youth.

 

[3800fps]

In my 55 years shooting experience, the "equipment race" has always been the path of any shooting discipline…
refining the equipment so far past the intent of the original contrived challenge——that a trigger, a sighting system and a projectile are what remain as commonalities.
This is just the nature of the players and the games they play…each to his own self regulated challenges…750 yd elk blaster?…I chose to get a whole lot closer, but that's just how I choose to play the game.

 

[QuietTexan]

My wife works with a bunch of gals whose husbands and boyfriends main hobby is playing video games.

My wife has learned over almost 20 years to not question the outdoors stuff I do, because she hears the same stuff from her friends - lazy, worthless, addicted to games, never does anything.

I try to take at least one kid with me anytime I go check on any of our places, there's a lot of value in getting them to love the WORK that goes into all of this, not just the payoff at the end.

When the gun goes boom or the steak hits the grill - that's not why I do these things, that's the result of all the work I loved doing. If you don't love the animals, then ranching and hunting isn't going to be very rewarding.

 

[Taylorbok]

The last generation born are ignorant. I didn't say stupid, although some my be. They have been dumbed down by equipment and electronics that they have no idea how it works, or how to fix it if it breaks. This was shown to me about a decade ago when my 25 year old son called. Dad, I'm on the by pass with a flat tire and I'll be late to work. me, well get out the jack and lug wrench and change it. Him, I don't know how, or where any of that stuff is. Me, what, that's simple, then I thought, he's never seen it done. This is the you tube generation. Had to drop everything I was doing drive thirty miles to show him how to change a tire. He knows how to now. I informed him there was a manual in the glove box that showed how things work on his car. Him, oh wow, I never knew that. . Older generation takes for granted that this stuff is common knowledge. But it's not to this group of youth.

You are seriously gonna complain about how ignorant and stupid that generation is and then tell us how you never taught your own son how to change a tire but still expected him to know how...

 

[Bob Milek]

I too think a primitive season should be a primitive season, cap and round ball for ML with iron sights (old guys use fiber optic sights) and real black powder. Bring that effective range back to 100 or less. A flintlock season if you want that I could get behind. But where do you stop? No camo? No scent control? No binoculars or spotting scopes? We have advantages that primitive hunters did not. Compound bows in general double the effective range of a bow in my opinion when compared to a recurve or a stout guy with a longbow, 25-30maybe to 50-60 using all the latest super duper gear. Yes, I shoot my compound bow at 100+ but you won't find me flinging arrows at a whitetail beyond 35 maybe 40. I don't see a need to restrict vertical bows but that is just my opinion, getting inside 40 is still getting inside 40 like it was a LONG time ago. I have NO issue with smokeless muzzle loaders, 500fps cross bows, bolt action magnum pistols, range finding gear that gives you dead dials for any of the these tools, etc but let's not pretend it's a primitive weapon. Use them in the rifle season. But, until the season is defined as a primitive season I can't blame anyone for using a tool that is legal for their hunt. I am hoping more states define a real primitive season and place reasonable (to me) restrictions on the tools you can use. That is my opinion and lots will disagree but I am ok with that too.

In spirit, I agree on the primitive definition. However, what has been overlooked in all the discussions on this thread is that hunting, no matter what type or weapon, is still an endeavor which relies on ethics. While advances in technology in ALL facets, black powder, archery, crossbow, smokeless modern rifle, handgun, have truly blurred the lines that distinguish them, there is another aspect. These advances have also made it much easier to cleanly harvest game at the ranges originally envisioned with each. For years, I have watched hunters push the limits of the equipment they had- conventional bow hunters taking 50 yd shots, compound bow hunters taking 80 yard shots. Straight walled handgun hunters (which I am part of) taking 150 yard shots, conventional smokeless rifle hunters taking 1100 yard shots. Not to go on, but the same is true of muzzle loaders. These have resulted in many wounded animals, or less that clean kills. It doesn't matter what regulations are passed, unless a hunter limits his shots to what is reasonable for his equipment, this will always be true- and you can't legislate ethics. I hunt with a crossbow- just got a super fast model- and shots will be no longer that 50 yards, I hunt with handguns and modern cartridge rifles- but limit myself to ranges I consider 99% sure of a single shot, clean kill. Not tooting my horn here, but just saying- if all hunters felt the same, the distinctions really wouldn't matter. However, if it weren't for pushing the envelope, we also wouldn't have the improved optics, projectiles, powders, rangefinders, etc- that most of us benefit from.

 

[QuietTexan]

You are seriously gonna complain about how ignorant and stupid that generation is and then tell us how you never taught your own son how to change a tire but still expected him to know how...

I helped a lady stuck on the side of the road way out in Nowhere, West Texas once about ten years ago. It was a Mercedes, and it took me reading her owner's manual to figure it all out. Had a stupid fancy L-shaped jack that stuck in a hole behind a cover in the bumper, tools were in a different place than the jack, spare was buried under four layers of sound proofing in the trunk, had a wheel lock that thankfully the key way in the glove box for. There's a lot of truth to the notion that modern vehicles are significantly harder to work on than older ones - because the designer doesn't want us to be able to work on them. I fancy myself a smart guy and that car still kicked my butt.

Tesla's don't even come with a spare anymore. They want you calling the service and begging for help.

 

[Muddyboots]

MI only allows black powder or commercially produced synthetic black powder even during the limited deer zone firearm season. This definition does help restrict to a certain degree.

 

[CMP70306]

I don't understand the dynamics of PA and the game populations. The answers given by Game & Fish bureaucrats for some particular issue doesn't often align with their own stated objectives. In their defense they are dealing with a dynamic system that's hardly predictable both in regards to animal populations and hunter adaptations to new regulation and the integration of new technology.

Why is hunting participation decreasing? In my mind it's human evolution and neuro-chemical. People can get the same dopamine hit from playing video games without leaving the couch as they can going out hunting. It's less energy expenditure for the same neuro/chemical result. Given humans are wired biologically to use the least amount of calories for a given return on investment the results are predictable.

My wife works with a bunch of gals whose husbands and boyfriends main hobby is playing video games.

Removing rifles from the fall turkey season was the most blatant one, they said turkey numbers were falling and they needed to change it to help the population. By their own estimates the change would save 900 hens per year, out of a total population of 212,000 turkeys. Yet bearded hens are legal in spring and an estimated 3,000 are killed then but they gloss over that fact. What it really comes down to is some of the commissioners didn't like the idea of hunting turkeys with a rifle so they found the most far reaching excuse they could and ran with it.

Now a couple years later they stated that the turkey populations are actually doing better than previously thought but guess what wasn't added back this year?

As for video games I play them though not as much as I used to. I did pick up a new hunting game recently, first video game I've ever seen with the full animal vitals included that also incorporates bullet temporary cavity damage and as well as the permanent cavity damage. It also has the Remington 7600 and 1903 Springfield both of which I personally hunt with and have never seen in a hunting game.

Most archery shots are under 50 yards compared to a inline capable of shooting hundreds of yards. No comparison!
The game commission will never satisfy everyone so they try to give everyone a little something to keep them quiet.

That's irrelevant, it was purely based on harvest numbers rather than the capability of the implements themselves. The current muzzleloader season kills around 20,000 does, a buck harvest would be similar if not lower as the firearm buck harvest is typically half the doe harvest.

For arguments sake let's say it's the same as the doe harvest at 20,000. In the time since the PGC said the herd couldn't sustain a muzzleloader buck harvest prior to the rut the archery buck harvest has increased by 50,000. That is double what would have been expected by allowing buck hunting during the early muzzleloader season.

So if 20,000 was too much to even consider for muzzleloader why is 50,000 more getting a season expansion for archery?

 

[birddog 68]

Removing rifles from the fall turkey season was the most blatant one, they said turkey numbers were falling and they needed to change it to help the population. By their own estimates the change would save 900 hens per year, out of a total population of 212,000 turkeys. Yet bearded hens are legal in spring and an estimated 3,000 are killed then but they gloss over that fact. What it really comes down to is some of the commissioners didn't like the idea of hunting turkeys with a rifle so they found the most far reaching excuse they could and ran with it.

Now a couple years later they stated that the turkey populations are actually doing better than previously thought but guess what wasn't added back this year?

As for video games I play them though not as much as I used to. I did pick up a new hunting game recently, first video game I've ever seen with the full animal vitals included that also incorporates bullet temporary cavity damage and as well as the permanent cavity damage. It also has the Remington 7600 and 1903 Springfield both of which I personally hunt with and have never seen in a hunting game.


That's irrelevant, it was purely based on harvest numbers rather than the capability of the implements themselves. The current muzzleloader season kills around 20,000 does, a buck harvest would be similar if not lower as the firearm buck harvest is typically half the doe harvest.

For arguments sake let's say it's the same as the doe harvest at 20,000. In the time since the PGC said the herd couldn't sustain a muzzleloader buck harvest prior to the rut the archery buck harvest has increased by 50,000. That is double what would have been expected by allowing buck hunting during the early muzzleloader season.

So if 20,000 was too much to even consider for muzzleloader why is 50,000 more getting a season expansion for archery?

I'm not going to argue about this.
This is my answer

The game commission will never satisfy everyone

Someone is always going to be upset!

 

[bengineer]

Asking for more regulation or restriction is going to earn us exactly that, more restriction. It also divides us, a small group of mostly-like-minded individuals, even more. Remember divide-and-conquer is a communist tactic.

Bob Milek's comments above illustrating the necessity of ethics are great. YOUR limit is probably lower than that of the other guy. YOU will pass on the xxx distance shot with a weapon capable of that distance, but the other guy wont. YOU will sleep better knowing you didnt wound an animal. You may feel negatively that your ethically passed shot was taken by someone else, but at least you knew your limits and stuck with them, as opposed to the guy who wounded an animal because he either didn't know his limits or he violated them for an impulse. Be the adult, not the child.

 

[Rosebud]

You are seriously gonna complain about how ignorant and stupid that generation is and then tell us how you never taught your own son how to change a tire but still expected him to know how...

I'm guilty, I never had a flat tire as he was growing up. Just assumed he knew. He had never seen it done. So yep, I'm guilty as charged. You teach your kids how it was done?

 

[Prairie Sasquatch]

Removing rifles from the fall turkey season was the most blatant one, they said turkey numbers were falling and they needed to change it to help the population. By their own estimates the change would save 900 hens per year, out of a total population of 212,000 turkeys. Yet bearded hens are legal in spring and an estimated 3,000 are killed then but they gloss over that fact. What it really comes down to is some of the commissioners didn't like the idea of hunting turkeys with a rifle so they found the most far reaching excuse they could and ran with it.

Now a couple years later they stated that the turkey populations are actually doing better than previously thought but guess what wasn't added back this year?

As for video games I play them though not as much as I used to. I did pick up a new hunting game recently, first video game I've ever seen with the full animal vitals included that also incorporates bullet temporary cavity damage and as well as the permanent cavity damage. It also has the Remington 7600 and 1903 Springfield both of which I personally hunt with and have never seen in a hunting game.


That's irrelevant, it was purely based on harvest numbers rather than the capability of the implements themselves. The current muzzleloader season kills around 20,000 does, a buck harvest would be similar if not lower as the firearm buck harvest is typically half the doe harvest.

For arguments sake let's say it's the same as the doe harvest at 20,000. In the time since the PGC said the herd couldn't sustain a muzzleloader buck harvest prior to the rut the archery buck harvest has increased by 50,000. That is double what would have been expected by allowing buck hunting during the early muzzleloader season.

So if 20,000 was too much to even consider for muzzleloader why is 50,000 more getting a season expansion for archery?

You don't have to defend playing video games. I really don't care if people play them if that's what makes them happy. I was just illustrating what is happening from a biological standpoint. I'm a libertarian and believe you should be free to do what you want as long as the exercise of your freedoms don't impose on another persons freedoms.

I've even argued privately with members of the ND G&F that they really have no right to tell me how many or when I can shoot non native invasive Chinese ring neck pheasants if I'm on my own land or on private land I have permission to kill them. What makes them different than a starling, pigeon or a house sparrow other than them charging me a license fee and telling me what I can or cannot do? But I digress.

 

[Muddyboots]

First discussion of ethics is major rule LRH violation. You do you and I will do me.

Whatever a state has for a regulation for wildlife. You don't like it? Do something about it. I have personally changed 2 laws in Michigan. Takes effort and perserverance but it can be done. I authored the straight wall rifle to bring new in shooters, sustain older shooters, bring in slight build and youth. Highly successful, but took 5 years to get to test rule and then 3 years to final. Now has been transplanted to 6 other states and counting. I recently sent a package to NH.

Work with your local representative and or state united conservation counsel for additional support.