Importance of Shooter-Spotter Communication.

[royinidaho]

Awhile back I believe one of the administrators posted the proper dialog between the shooter and spotter. I tho't it was important enough to save on the desk top. For reference it is included, below.

Well, guess what? It is important.

Ol' Duffus Roy and Mungus Paul, a father&son team went to the range to get Duffus Roy on the target at the 1192 gong. Mungus Paul was the spotter.

Another fella, local 50cal shooter observed all of this. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Last session put the dials spot on at 500 meters. There is no target between 500m and the 1192yd gong. So it was dial and give it a go.

Shooter was wearing Radian muffs with sound. Spotter was wearing foam ear plugs and was deafer than a post.

I shot and asked which way do I move it. He heard, "where did I hit?" He said "to the right". I said how far. He said "a couple a feet".

Let's see here 1.0472*11.92=where the calculator? Ah well lets go right a couple of MOA.

Duffus sets up again and lets one go. Spotter says, looking at the bullet trail, "Wow, that's way higher than I would have tho't and it curved in behind that juniper. The only juniper that I saw was on the left. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Huh, that's about 1.5 Mils according to the dots. Sets see now, 3.6*11.92= still no calulator. Better crank in a couple more MOA to the Right.

OK, lets do this again.

Bank. Mungus Spotter says, "Hey that was cool. It curved in behind that juniper again. Duffus me is thinkin' **** for a 10 MPH wind here, it must be blowing like hell there"

Then I says, "Which juniper are ya talkin' about (There's a zillion of em out there) Mungus spotter says, no kiddin this is really what he said, "The green one." Duffus Shooter says, Hell! they're ALL green. Mungus says "No the one I'm talking about is "greener" than the rest." Geeze, its just like talking with his mother, I thinks. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

The greener one is to the right /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif. Hell!!!!!!

Why didn't cha say I was hitting to the right!!!!!!!!???????

All of a sudden, things make sense!!! I dial out all those MOAs (musta been around 20 of 'em). Then dial in the windage for 500m which I knew to be spot on. Then dialed in the appropriate windage (into the wind this time /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif).

Me and the spotter get synchronized for this shot. I let it go. Then I hear a 'Doink", aaaah I like these Radians. I asked Mungus Spotter if he saw it and that I tho't I hit it. He responds with, "I didn't see a thing. I wasn't looking at the gong. You've got me pretty well trained to look everywhere else." /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Meanwhile the 50 cal guy in the peanut gallery is bustin' a a gut. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif Mumbling something about having done something even worse than that one time. (Yeah, I bet! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif)

I think I'm just gonna to to the range alone from now on. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Also, I think Mungus Spotter is due for an upgrade from those phome rubber plugs.......

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When you both setup, shooter is in final point of aim (on target) and spotter has his scope focused on target (usually focused just in front of the target so you can see the mirage best), then the spotter starts by saying:
"Spotter is on the target."

Now the shooter knows the spotter is ready to start.

Then the spotter gives the shooter his windage and elevation adjustments or hold-off.
The shooter repeats them back to confirm he has made the adjustment or knows the hold-off.
When the shooter is ready, he simply says: "Shooter Ready".

He stays on target but does not shoot.

Shortly after, after checking wind and mirage conditions the spotter says:
"Send It".

After the shooter hears that he should fire within a few seconds if possible, to ensure he is firing in the wind condition the spotter called.

After the shot is gone, the shooter does a "Call".

He says, "Broke Clean" if the crosshairs were properly positioned.

If he pulled the shot he describes the crosshair situation, for example he might say, "High left" or "Broke Right" so the spotter knows he may have influenced where the bullet hit, not a wind change. We mark the following info for each shot, Elevation, Windage, Call, Hit in a vertical column, plus mark the impact location in a little box. We also note wind, light, temps etc. at the top of the page. I made up a simple 8 1/2 by 11 page that we Xerox to keep track of about 40-50 shots per page. Keep a ring-binder for this.
.

 

[Buffalobob]

Well, I went up to Mifflin on Saturday for the groundhog shoot and JB1000BR was my spotter. I shot a few rounds at the sighter and didnot hit it but adjusted and decided to shoot at the target for score. I send the first shot and JB says aim 1.5 low and 1.5 left so I do and fire. He says again 1.5 low and 1.5 left so I do and fire. He says again 1.5 low and 1.5 left so I do and fire. Three shots all land 1.5 high and 1.5 right. He meant cumulative adjustments and I was interpreting aiming point.

Never mind, I got revenge on him. He wasn't on the paper either at that range so he said he was going to shoot at the rectangular rock. I ask where on the rock and hear "left bottom". He shoots and hits left bottom so I say you hit it. He shoots at the paper and misses the paper. We go back to the rock and he hits the lower left corner again and I tell him he hit it again. He shoots at the paper again and doesn't get paper. Finally, we have a discussion one more time on where on the rock is he aiming. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[jb1000br]

BB - part of my problem spotting my hits on the rock was the bullet was getting there so durn fast I couldn't get the sight picture back fast enough /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

we got 'er figured out soon after that target though /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

JB

 

[Buffalobob]

We might not have won any money, but we had a good time.

And most importantly, what you said about all scopes obeying the right hand screw rule for elevation is going to cut my prep time for hunting shots in half. No more getting up and bending over the scope and taking my glasses off to read which way to twist the dial. I have checked all of my scopes and they are all right hand screws. Amazing what simple things are important to know.

Plus half the time I loose my glasses and have to hunt for them before I can shoot.

Thanks for the tip.

 

[royinidaho]

Nothin' I like better than company. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Most people don't admit such stuff in public. It takes a heck of a man!

What's this Right Handed thing. I don't seem to get it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif But then I've just admitted not being too bright /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I looked at mine and it shows R<----- which is counter clockwise or anticlockwise on the other side of the pond. (Went through half of a sheep dog training session before I caught on to that one /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif)

Same for the elevation. UP<------.

Given that, Righty Tightie Lefty loosley says the dial moves in the direction of bullet impact which is away from center of the scope for both.

 

[milanuk]

My partner and I shot a 'tactical' match two weekends ago... definitely an exercise in shooter/spotter dialogue.

The shooting part went OK... there was some frustration because the way the targets were set up even the 190gr Berger VLDs I was slingin' weren't throwing up much dirt to spot misses. It didn't help that his gun (with my scope on it!) was shooting just about everywhere but at the target (found out the next day he had loose scope rings, cross-ring bolts, and action screws), but the real circus was when we were spotting/ranging the targets to begin with. Depending on the layout of the targets, we didn't always shoot straight left to right, but sometimes close ones first (less cranking on the knobs), or get the flat ones first then go after the angled shots... and that was where the stuff hit the fan. He'd be referring to one target while I was writing down the info for another. I think the people watching probably figgered we were about to get in a wrestling match a time or two along the way, but we never quite got there... almost, but not quite. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Monte

 

[Buffalobob]

Oh Roy, you shouldn't have asked. The right hand screw rule is a physicist thing for dealing with vectors and rotating objects and electricity. However, it works for all right hand twist screw, nuts, and bolts. It is how I know which way to loosen a lug nut. I just cup my hand with my thumb sticking up and twist my fingers in a direction and immediately know which way to move the wrench.

Your humorous event at the range has taken a seriuos twist here. We are actually learning something.



Wiki

 

[Buffalobob]

[ QUOTE ]
looked at mine and it shows R<----- which is counter clockwise

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently all scope move up by being twisted counter clockwise.

I have quit laughing long enough to perhaps explain the right hand rule.

Take you right hand and curl your two smallest fingers around your elevation dial so you can twist it counterclockwise. Bend your other two fingers so they match the two that are grasping the dial which is now nestled in the palm of your hand. Rather than laying your thumb down on your top finger so it looks like a fist, instead extend the thumb up at a ninety degree angle. As you twist the dial counter clockwise that will be the direction your fingers are pointing and the elevation will go the way your thumb is pointing (up).

The reverse is true if you do the reverse.

Now take your right hand and turn it so the thumb is pointing down and grasp the knob and twist it the way your fingers are point. This then moves the bullet strike down.

If you are happy with "righty tighty and lefty loosey" then it is just as well. What ever is fast and works.

The thing to me was I had never had the simple idea penetrate my brain that all scopes worked the same and each and every time I made an adjustment I would peer at the arrow to see which way to turn it. When you are prone and our age it is a real pain in the butt to try to see the top of the dial to find the arrow so your can dial in your clicks.

 

[royinidaho]

Gee. I learned "that" right hand rule in Electronic's Tech school in the very early '60. Was refreshed on it in Navy IC school in the later early '60s. Was refreshed again a little later in the early mid 60s in Navy Nuke school.

I had no reason to link it to scopes /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I'll stick to righty-tighty Lefty Loosley. Learned it from a neighbor (Blond) who use it to remember how the sticky lid came off of her finger nail polish. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Now I just think "Stephanie" when I get confused. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I otta team up with Monte (and in this corner we have......)

 

[blackco]

BuffaloBob,
After >20yrs in the military and lots of experience busting my knuckles using wrenches, I have never heard of the right hand rule!!! After your explanation it is very clear FOR ME how it works. It's a great little trick for figuring out how the move a threaded item (nut/bolt/lid/etc).

Roy, I have known a few Stephanies and thinking about some of them would confuse (read distract) me. My experience has always been very good with people with that name. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[milanuk]

[ QUOTE ]

Apparently all scope move up by being twisted counter clockwise.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite all. I think some of the early Leupold M3 scopes turned clockwise (mainly because I see it specifically noted when I see them posted for sale) instead of CCW. Why, I don't know.

Roy,

If it makes you feel any better, they were still teaching the 'right hand rule' in nuke school in the early 90's /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif We had some... colorful substitutions for the letters to 'aid' memory /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif . I don't know how they teach that stuff any more in the 'politically correct' Navy!

Monte