GO824 Lathe FLUSH SYSTEMS

[Coyote Shadow Tracker]

WE own a GO 824 Lathe and currently looking to put a Flush" system on it. Right now, I do not mind chambering SLOW/ I am a perfectionist, so everything has to be done RIRGT. We don't have time schedules. We have Accuracy Schedules. When we are training a new young person that is interested in firearm building, we want to train to the best of our ability. so "Slow is Accurate and Accurate is Fast"
We are looking in the "Flush" System more for better cleaning than speed.
Anyone have experience and what model of Flush Systems do you use ?
Aso from the pump to the lines and do you use Vipers Venom? I know we have to get a stronger pump for Vipers Venom. so some suggestions. The thing I am looking at is the rotary attachment to the end of the barrel to pump the cutting fluid through to the Reamer. I don't want some Rinke Dink 90-degree attachment to the barrels that leaks all over.
I would rather spend all day with setup getting the barrel straight and my tooling set prefect and cutting the barrel the next day when I am fresh,
"It is not how fast you can chamber a barrel"
"It is how accurate you can cut that chamber."

 

[V35BTC]

I built mine with these parts.
Tank- I built it. It has a divider wall with a suction screen on the side the pump pulls from. The oil returns on the other side, and most of the metal settles out before spilling over to the suction side. I put an old speaker magnet in there as well. The top can come off for cleaning.

Pump- Pro Con Carbonator pump

Coupling- Deublin Rotary. I simply tap the muzzle end 1/4 NPT. If I have a barrel with a short length or threaded muzzle, I have an extension made from an old barrel I thread on and proceed.

I have a pressure relief valve and bypass line between pump and barrel.

I have a filter between pump and barrel.

There is a tee with valves on two ports, and an air line on one port to isolate and purge oil from the barrel to clean.

Oil- MobilMet 766 with a little ATF.

 

[shortgrass]

I am uncertain if there is a commercially offered flush system. I designed and sourced my own components, figured out what I needed. My muzzle attachment is a Gre-Tan, and when properly attached, doesn't leak, because I follow the instructions that came with it! I have used that muzzle attachment for better than 16yrs. Before that, I used a Dublin Rotary coupling, but there were times that I encountered where I didn't have the "extra" barrel to drill and tap. I pump a blend of dark threading oil and Tap Magic Pro Tap w/ EP Extra. I clear the cuttings, but don't use it for high pressure. As a machinist with over 49yrs experience, I put to use what I had seen and used on industrial machine tools, only smaller and with much less pressure.

 

[Coyote Shadow Tracker]

I built mine with these parts.
Tank- I built it. It has a divider wall with a suction screen on the side the pump pulls from. The oil returns on the other side, and most of the metal settles out before spilling over to the suction side. I put an old speaker magnet in there as well. The top can come off for cleaning.

Pump- Pro Con Carbonator pump

Coupling- Deublin Rotary. I simply tap the muzzle end 1/4 NPT. If I have a barrel with a short length or threaded muzzle, I have an extension made from an old barrel I thread on and proceed.

I have a pressure relief valve and bypass line between pump and barrel.

I have a filter between pump and barrel.

There is a tee with valves on two ports, and an air line on one port to isolate and purge oil from the barrel to clean.

Oil- MobilMet 766 with a little ATF.

Any pictures?
Thanks

 

[V35BTC]

Any pictures?

Sure, im out of State for a couple weeks, when I return I will take some.

 

[Tucker65]

I have been working on building a flush system for awhile and just about have it finished. I haven't chambered a barrel with it yet but I'm sure it's going to work just fine.

I used a carbinator pump, a rotary union, and a 5 gallon fuel cell. All purchased off ebay at a very reasonable price. I'll drill and tap the end of the barrel 1/8" pipe and connect it to the rotary union with a short piece of hydraulic hose.

 

[tobnpr]

Right now, I do not mind chambering SLOW/ I am a perfectionist, so everything has to be done RIRGT. We don't have time schedules. We have Accuracy Schedules.

Why do you believe that using a flush system sacrifices accuracy?? NO truth to that statement.
Dial it in. Pre-bore. Turn on the flush system and run the reamer. The flush system doesn't change anything with your setup, and reamers are form cutters and are going to follow the hole you bored. The biggest "issue" is that assuming you already have a pile of reamers, they're likely not set up for use with a flush system (grooved for flow)- so you're basically getting flow only through the grooves and if you use a live pilot you have to frequently back out to allow the chips to flush clear. Still WAAAY faster than manually clearing the chamber every pass.

One day I'm going to be brave enough to ditch the pilots as they really shouldn't be necessary when pre-boring is done but I'm set in my ways...

 

[Coyote Shadow Tracker]

Why do you believe that using a flush system sacrifices accuracy?? NO truth to that statement.
Dial it in. Pre-bore. Turn on the flush system and run the reamer. The flush system doesn't change anything with your setup, and reamers are form cutters and are going to follow the hole you bored. The biggest "issue" is that assuming you already have a pile of reamers, they're likely not set up for use with a flush system (grooved for flow)- so you're basically getting flow only through the grooves and if you use a live pilot you have to frequently back out to allow the chips to flush clear. Still WAAAY faster than manually clearing the chamber every pass.

One day I'm going to be brave enough to ditch the pilots as they really shouldn't be necessary when pre-boring is done but I'm set in my ways...

WooH
tobnpr
You said about my post:
"Why do you believe that using a flush system sacrifices accuracy??"
I never said that!
My Post is looking for a "Flush System" I do want to install a GOOD Flush System and looking for ideas. We have 1.45" barrels now and will be going larger and need options on the attachments for the muzzle end to pump the oil through.
Chambering a rifle slow and precise opposed to FAST. Even with a Flush System you need to go slow unless you are just looking for production.

I did say:
"It is not how fast you can chamber a barrel"
"It is how accurate you can cut that chamber."
Which has nothing to do with a Flush System. It has to do with a GS wanting to get the barrels out as fast as they can or having a custom cut accurate chamber.

We currently do some Mentoring for young people that want to know more about the process of reloading and making/chambering/building a rifle. WE DO IT REALLY SLOW SO THERE IS AN UNDERSTANDING OF THE PROCESS AND NO MISTAKES!

 

[shortgrass]

A lot of misconceptions in the post, CST.

 

[shortgrass]

A "bad" chamber can be cut going slow just as easily as a bad chamber can be cut going fast. It is the set-up and tooling, and the skills of the one 'driving' that matters. As posted previously, I have a life time of machining experience, and, I am a gunsmith school graduate (MCC class of '93). In school we were taught the 'slow' way. Dial in the bore on both ends, drill (using a formula given as part of the instruction), and chamber making .025-.050" per pass. All the while cleaning the cuttings from the reamer, wipe the 'chamber' clean with a patch and re-oiling the 'chamber' and reamer with dark threading oil. "Good" chambers and oversized chambers were cut by the students. I cut my 7 Mag oversized because I failed to realize the reamer had slipped back in the floating holder and no longer was self aligning (floating). I was able to cut the threads off and have another go at it. This time, cutting a "good" on sized chamber. After I started my GS business, I did the same way as taught in school, but the 'wheels' were always going 'round and 'round. I had the opportunity to closely examine an ancient Pratt & Whitney dedicated chambering machine (WW2 vintage). It had a muzzle flush system, and that prompted me to investigate and set one up for my lathe. Having machining experience, I had calculated and asked the reamer makers (JGS and Dave Manson) their recommendations for SFM (surface feet per minute). The 'old way' as taught in school was VERY slow on surface feet. The means the reamers was taking more rubbing the tool than cutting. After installing the muzzle flush, I was able to increase RPM, thus getting closer to the SFM recommended by the reamer makers, as friction was greatly reduced due to chip removal and lubrication. The machined finish of the chamber got better, even though it was not taking nearly as long to cut them. Finish improved greatly! I have the same lathe I bought new in '99, a Jet 13x40 Geared Head. Not the most expensive, by any means, but completely adequate for gunsmith work (threading and chambering, threading shotgun barrels for choke tubes, reaming sizing dies and general tool making). In short, the addition of the muzzle flush not only made chambers the same as the 'slow way' and with a better finish that need no polishing, but it cut the time needed to cut the chamber by at least 1/2, at times more. Why? Because I could turn the spindle faster and closer to the recommended SFM, and I spent less time clearing the cuttings. Less friction. There is not a thing wrong with using less time and getting better results. Machinists do it every day. And, that is all chambering is, a precision machining task. Many times a day a machinist will calculate how fast to turn the spindle on the lathe for the tool he is about to use, or how fast (or slow) to turn the milling cutter , both done for optimum performance of the tool and operation and still obtaining the desired result. I would not hesitate to compare chambers I cut with anyone else's. It should be noted that I have done more to my lathe to "make better" than just ad the muzzle flush. Better chucks and spiders, more accurate mountings of chucks and spiders to the spindle nose. The chucks provided with many (most) of the lathes , sold as "gunsmithing lathes", can be improved upon. (I am NOT looking for work! I have all I care to do now at my age). Cut your chambers anyway that makes you happy! Just passing along some of what I have learned over my time in the shop.

 

[Coyote Shadow Tracker]

A "bad" chamber can be cut going slow just as easily as a bad chamber can be cut going fast. It is the set-up and tooling, and the skills of the one 'driving' that matters. As posted previously, I have a life time of machining experience, and, I am a gunsmith school graduate (MCC class of '93). In school we were taught the 'slow' way. Dial in the bore on both ends, drill (using a formula given as part of the instruction), and chamber making .025-.050" per pass. All the while cleaning the cuttings from the reamer, wipe the 'chamber' clean with a patch and re-oiling the 'chamber' and reamer with dark threading oil. "Good" chambers and oversized chambers were cut by the students. I cut my 7 Mag oversized because I failed to realize the reamer had slipped back in the floating holder and no longer was self aligning (floating). I was able to cut the threads off and have another go at it. This time, cutting a "good" on sized chamber. After I started my GS business, I did the same way as taught in school, but the 'wheels' were always going 'round and 'round. I had the opportunity to closely examine an ancient Pratt & Whitney dedicated chambering machine (WW2 vintage). It had a muzzle flush system, and that prompted me to investigate and set one up for my lathe. Having machining experience, I had calculated and asked the reamer makers (JGS and Dave Manson) their recommendations for SFM (surface feet per minute). The 'old way' as taught in school was VERY slow on surface feet. The means the reamers was taking more rubbing the tool than cutting. After installing the muzzle flush, I was able to increase RPM, thus getting closer to the SFM recommended by the reamer makers, as friction was greatly reduced due to chip removal and lubrication. The machined finish of the chamber got better, even though it was not taking nearly as long to cut them. Finish improved greatly! I have the same lathe I bought new in '99, a Jet 13x40 Geared Head. Not the most expensive, by any means, but completely adequate for gunsmith work (threading and chambering, threading shotgun barrels for choke tubes, reaming sizing dies and general tool making). In short, the addition of the muzzle flush not only made chambers the same as the 'slow way' and with a better finish that need no polishing, but it cut the time needed to cut the chamber by at least 1/2, at times more. Why? Because I could turn the spindle faster and closer to the recommended SFM, and I spent less time clearing the cuttings. Less friction. There is not a thing wrong with using less time and getting better results. Machinists do it every day. And, that is all chambering is, a precision machining task. Many times a day a machinist will calculate how fast to turn the spindle on the lathe for the tool he is about to use, or how fast (or slow) to turn the milling cutter , both done for optimum performance of the tool and operation and still obtaining the desired result. I would not hesitate to compare chambers I cut with anyone else's. It should be noted that I have done more to my lathe to "make better" than just ad the muzzle flush. Better chucks and spiders, more accurate mountings of chucks and spiders to the spindle nose. The chucks provided with many (most) of the lathes , sold as "gunsmithing lathes", can be improved upon. (I am NOT looking for work! I have all I care to do now at my age). Cut your chambers anyway that makes you happy! Just passing along some of what I have learned over my time in the shop.

Shortgrass you did bring up an important point. there is a difference in "Spindle Speed" and Feed Rate "SFM" pertaining to the metal you are cutting and the material of the cutter. Without the correct Spindle speed & SFM matched to the tool and metal you can have poor results.

 

[shortgrass]

SFM and feed rate are 2 different things. SFM is the speed which a cutter is used at, how has the tool or spindle is turned at. Feed rate is "chip load", how many thou of an inch per cutting edge of the tool. SFM can probably be explained better on YouTube or Wiki than I could. On a lathe, when cutting on the outside, the circumference of the bar. On the inside ( a hole) the diameter of the cutting tool. A person could be turning at the proper speed, but lightly feeding and that will dull the tool (rubbing and not cutting enough to properly utilize the capability of the cutting tool). With so many 'doing their own work' these days, I'd speculate that more reamers are dulled from not enough feed/speed than are dulled by the number of chambers they have cut. Rubbing creates friction,,, friction creates heat, heat is one of the destroyers of cutting tools. That is one reason why carbide has become so desirable, you don't have to learn how to grind a turning/threading tool, and it (carbide) can stand much more heat than HS tooling ever could.

 

[Coyote Shadow Tracker]

SFM and feed rate are 2 different things. SFM is the speed which a cutter is used at, how has the tool or spindle is turned at. Feed rate is "chip load", how many thou of an inch per cutting edge of the tool. SFM can probably be explained better on YouTube or Wiki than I could. On a lathe, when cutting on the outside, the circumference of the bar. On the inside ( a hole) the diameter of the cutting tool. A person could be turning at the proper speed, but lightly feeding and that will dull the tool (rubbing and not cutting enough to properly utilize the capability of the cutting tool). With so many 'doing their own work' these days, I'd speculate that more reamers are dulled from not enough feed/speed than are dulled by the number of chambers they have cut. Rubbing creates friction,,, friction creates heat, heat is one of the destroyers of cutting tools. That is one reason why carbide has become so desirable, you don't have to learn how to grind a turning/threading tool, and it (carbide) can stand much more heat than HS tooling ever could.

Yes I stand corrected on the SFM and feed rate. I should have explained the spindle speed calculated to the diameter/circumference of the workpiece for the tool and then calculating in the feed rate. You can go a lot faster with carbide than HSS, but carbide can't go as slow as HSS to get a fine finish. Recently had a member send us information on a company that make carbide tooling that produces a fine finish even at slower speeds.
It basically comes down to the material you are cutting, you tooling material and the speed needed to produce a proper cut.

The purpose on me starting this POST was to get information on a Flushing System because I would like to have a more efficient way to chamber a barrel. Was not really looking to get into a discussion of Spindle Speeds, SFM, Feed Rate and Tooling materials. But there is some good extra information in this discussion.
I like Tucker65 and Barehandlinem Flushing systems and looking forward to getting parts and information from a few systems so I can put one together that will work for us.
Thanks much!

 

[kgunz11]

CST, I am in Georgia, a few hours south of you. I've been using a flush system for 15 years. You're more than welcome to visit my shop and see how I have it set up. It doesn't have to be overcomplicated. Matter of fact, KISS applies here.