12GA Rounds for Grizz?

[memtb]

How many firearms are you going to carry in the field?

^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^

I've tried, when I was much younger and stronger, to carry both a handgun and a rifle. Couple this with a daypack loaded with all of the items a smart hunter in the backcountry should carry……the pounds start adding up as miles are traveled and ridges get steeper!

I didn't carry the handgun as a backup…..it was carried, hoping for the opportunity to take a nice big game animal with my handgun!

For myself, it's either or! There is no way that, if carrying both, I'd ditch the rifle are choose the handgun…..and I carry pretty serious handguns! A handgun is no substitute for a hunting rifle with decent capabilities!

If you're "hunting", the key word here is "hunting"……the rifle belongs in your hands and not on your shoulder! If you're on a "march" to/from your hunting location…..it's highly unlikely you are marching through bear habitat!

If you're "hunting" with a rifle……..there is no way that you can "draw and fire" your handgun faster than you can put your rifle into service!

It's actually pretty simple, if you are "hunting", the firearm belongs in your hands……not in a holster or shouldered!

Obviously…… my definition of hunting may be different than that of some of our "hunters" (?) here! memtb

 

[Pdvdh]

It's actually pretty simple, if you are "hunting", the firearm belongs in your hands……not in a holster or shouldered!

Obviously…… my definition of hunting may be different than that of some of our "hunters" (?) here! memtb

I backpack hike in and out hunting in Alaska with my rifles strapped to my Kifaru gun bearer all the time. Often have hiking sticks in each hand. Try to avoid the thick stuff for ease of travel, and to avoid surprising bears.

If a sow jumps out and full blown charges, I'll be at a disadvantage, compared to carrying my rifle in my hands. But when there's 100+ lbs of game meat in my backpack, and 4-5 cross country miles to cover, I need the hiking sticks for balance and to stay on my feet. The rifle attached to the pack is most common with backpack hunters in Alaska. It's similar to choosing to not carry a revolver in addition to a rifle. A matter of practicality during transport of gear while hiking.

I don't pack a revolver when rifle hunting either. Too much extra weight and discomfort. My rifle is always the better bear stopper.

There's no guarantee of safety in bear country. Some very experienced rifleman have been killed by brown bear near my home. I own a rifle purchased from a local hunter who was later killed by a big boar 10 miles from where we lived. He was out for a spring hike and bear hunt. Stopped for lunch. A boar travelling with a sow removed portions of his skull, leaving his brain exposed. He was a very experienced hunter with exceptional rifle and marksmanship skills. Boar that killed him likely would have also killed me. Except I don't give bears ANY chances. Take every advantage. Shoot while I have every advantage. Hesitation, in my opinion, kills.

When I hunt in bear country (which is every location I hunt in AK), I know I could be surprised and killed by a bear. Goes with the territory. No way around it. I remain bear conscious, and choose to hunt anyhow. Prepare reasonably and go hunt.

 

[Pdvdh]

The member that pooh poohs the lethality of Brenneke slugs has clearly never shot a large animal with one. For close range bear defense (not hunting, unless over bait), a reliable pump action 12ga shotgun loaded with Brenneke slugs is just about as good as it gets for stopping close range bear. No matter how big the bear.

Needs to throw away the slide rule and bullet sectional density calculations, and get real. Most bear guides hired by oil companies to protect oilfield workers and contractors from bears in the wilds of Alaska carry pump shotguns and Brenneke slugs. They don't calculate sectional densities. They aren't hunting bears. They're defending against charging bears. Brenneke slugs are superb close range bear killers. With multiple shots available in rapid succession, from a proven reliable 12ga pump shotgun.

The local police officer, as well as the local Fish and Game employee who spent 20yrs responding to rogue / nuisance bears, both told me they have no use for bear spray. Both carried Brenneke slugs in 12ga pumps. Both said "hit them with a Brenneke and they flat out die".

 

[memtb]

The member that pooh poohs the lethality of Brenneke slugs has clearly never shot a large animal with one. For close range bear defense (not hunting, unless over bait), a reliable pump action 12ga shotgun loaded with Brenneke slugs is just about as good as it gets for stopping close range bear. No matter how big the bear.

Needs to throw away the slide rule and bullet sectional density calculations, and get real. Most bear guides hired by oil companies to protect oilfield workers and contractors from bears in the wilds of Alaska carry pump shotguns and Brenneke slugs. They don't calculate sectional densities. They aren't hunting bears. They're defending against charging bears. Brenneke slugs are superb close range bear killers. With multiple shots available in rapid succession, from a proven reliable 12ga pump shotgun.

The local police officer, as well as the local Fish and Game employee who spent 20yrs responding to rogue / nuisance bears, both told me they have no use for bear spray. Both carried Brenneke slugs in 12ga pumps. Both said "hit them with a Brenneke and they flat out die".

No doubt the Brenneke slugs are a good choice!


Some valid points…..and "big" assumptions!

Namely the assumption that those making the decisions (guides, police officers) to carry shotguns for Bear defense are actually knowledgable in terminal ballistics and shotgun slug construction leaves me shaking my head…..and that they are carrying the better slugs available for the job at hand!

Many police officers from my past, and more than a couple of guides that I know are pretty clueless about firearms and terminal ballistic. I think that many simply see bigger as better! JMO memtb

 

[Pdvdh]

I don't choose bear defense weapons based on assumptions. The local police officer was an avid hunter. Owned more than 100 rifles/pistols/shotguns. A friend and hunting partner. Have only known 1 guy in my 67yrs that regularly shot firearms more than he did on a weekly basis.
F&G employee also an avid hunter. Dispatched multiple bears and moose with Brenneke slugs over the years. Taught bear defense classes to State of Alaska employees, a course which was required by State policy, before a State employee could carry a firearm in the field on-duty for bear defense. What better knowledge, experience, and qualifications would you desire?

Always use what you prefer for bear defense. And live or die with the consequences.

I killed one Alaskan bull moose with a 1 3/8oz Brenneke slug at 130yds. Still had enough retained energy and shock to put the bull down within 40yds of point of impact. Had I shot that bull at 15yds, I would have expected him to drop in his tracks. A thru and thru 3/4" hole on any broadside shot.

I fear no bear holding my 870s stoked with Brenneke slugs. No matter the enormity of the bear. I carry pure tungsten buckshot in the chamber. Handloads I developed for head shots. Brenneke slugs in the magazine if the tungsten turns out not best medicine for the particular encounter.

For hunting bears at longer ranges, you'ld carry a centerline rifle, of course. And your hunting rifle would typically serve as your bear weapon for charging bears. But I'd never consider any bolt or semi-auto rifle an equivalent bear stopper to the pump shotgun for in-your-face dead-serious bear charges. The type that only end in the death of me, or the bear. So I own three 870s fine-tuned for bear defense. You get a misfire with an 870? Rack another shell in the chamber and kill the bear... within 1 second!

 

[Mike Matteson]

No doubt the Brenneke slugs are a good choice!


Some valid points…..and "big" assumptions!

Namely the assumption that those making the decisions (guides, police officers) to carry shotguns for Bear defense are actually knowledgable in terminal ballistics and shotgun slug construction leaves me shaking my head…..and that they are carrying the better slugs available for the job at hand!

Many police officers from my past, and more than a couple of guides that I know are pretty clueless about firearms and terminal ballistic. I think that many simply see bigger as better! JMO memtb

I know with dealing with the government in transport a firearm inter national. The police in New York were about clueless. I think most of them shot whatever is supplied to them.
I have been told that a solid lead bullets or slug is better on bears than hollow points. There shape changes but don't come apart. It stands to reason too. That one of the reason that a full metal jacked bullet have to be use during war time.

 

[WildRose]

I didn't say it was good to carry. It was the guide said the best thing to do, with that 357 was to put in his own mouth and pull the trigger. That way no pain when the bear eats you.

I get that. However, the two rounds are in totally different leagues.

 

[WildRose]

I know with dealing with the government in transport a firearm inter national. The police in New York were about clueless. I think most of them shot whatever is supplied to them.
I have been told that a solid lead bullets or slug is better on bears than hollow points. There shape changes but don't come apart. It stands to reason too. That one of the reason that a full metal jacked bullet have to be use during war time.

Hollow points constructed for hunting and bear defense are completely different from those intended for Self Defense against humans.

In the latter overpenetration is a serious concern, in the former, there's no such thing.

Typically, the ballisticians and engineers designing said bullets understand those differences and do a whole lot of very expensive testing to get the desired characteristics in the bullets the design for each.

 

[calling4life]

US Forestry Service Bear Study from 1983, as you can imagine, this has worsened over time.
"In recent years, however, the Forest Service has employed many persons with little or no experience with firearms, and some with a strong aversion to them"

Much more recent defense of life event.
"U.S. Forest Service officials say two employees used a service weapon to fatally shoot a charging brown bear near Sitka last month, the area's third such attack by a sow in August...
They were carrying a large-caliber .375 H&H Magnum rifle, supplied by the Forest Service specifically for bear defense.
"This is what we train people on; this is what we certify people on," Edwards said. "If you need to go to a lethal means, you don't want to undershoot a bear." Hunters handling bear carcasses in the area often find wounds from other firearms that the animals had survived, Edwards said."

As for my comment regarding the "magic" slug, it was pointed at all slugs, that is just "the" slug, and the point was, if one is going to carry a long gun with considerable recoil, why wouldn't you go with what has been proven in Africa to take down bigger and tougher game.

375, 404 Jeff, 416 Rigby, 458 lott... Though I understand availability and cost can be an obstacle

However, I will say this, you use and stand by your recommendation of shotgun

That's integrity, and I respect that, so I will certainly leave it be.

As always, a person can use what they wish, and may we all encounter bears that decide the fight need not be had, but if that should not be the case, hopefully our aim is true and our brand of defense finds its mark.

Personally, I went 458 lott and 500 S&W. 500 grain trophy bonded bearclaw in the lott, testing a 520gr hardcast for the 500 S&W currently, 440gr wide flat nose hardcast is currently the round I carry until the 520s are proved out. Just to be open about that.

My plan is one shot and that is it, that is my bet with my life, one shot, wait until it's too close to miss (as if there is such a thing), my practice for that is coyotes and, of course, targets as well, just shot some steel today.

I wish you all the best, truly.

 

[WildRose]

US Forestry Service Bear Study from 1983, as you can imagine, this has worsened over time.
"In recent years, however, the Forest Service has employed many persons with little or no experience with firearms, and some with a strong aversion to them"

Much more recent defense of life event.
"U.S. Forest Service officials say two employees used a service weapon to fatally shoot a charging brown bear near Sitka last month, the area's third such attack by a sow in August...
They were carrying a large-caliber .375 H&H Magnum rifle, supplied by the Forest Service specifically for bear defense.
"This is what we train people on; this is what we certify people on," Edwards said. "If you need to go to a lethal means, you don't want to undershoot a bear." Hunters handling bear carcasses in the area often find wounds from other firearms that the animals had survived, Edwards said."

As for my comment regarding the "magic" slug, it was pointed at all slugs, that is just "the" slug, and the point was, if one is going to carry a long gun with considerable recoil, why wouldn't you go with what has been proven in Africa to take down bigger and tougher game.

375, 404 Jeff, 416 Rigby, 458 lott... Though I understand availability and cost can be an obstacle

However, I will say this, you use and stand by your recommendation of shotgun

That's integrity, and I respect that, so I will certainly leave it be.

As always, a person can use what they wish, and may we all encounter bears that decide the fight need not be had, but if that should not be the case, hopefully our aim is true and our brand of defense finds its mark.

Personally, I went 458 lott and 500 S&W. 500 grain trophy bonded bearclaw in the lott, testing a 520gr hardcast for the 500 S&W currently, 440gr wide flat nose hardcast is currently the round I carry until the 520s are proved out. Just to be open about that.

My plan is one shot and that is it, that is my bet with my life, one shot, wait until it's too close to miss (as if there is such a thing), my practice for that is coyotes and, of course, targets as well, just shot some steel today.

I wish you all the best, truly.

Ruger Hawkey M77 MKII's are very affordable these days and available in .375 and .416 Ruger.

I bought one and my brother borrowed it for a bear hunt in Idaho, that was the last I saw of it. Great rifles.

 

[Muddyboots]

The speed and ungodly fury of a grizz in full charge is in microseconds to bring any firearm to bear (ouch bad pun) and get an effective shot off. How many hunting in grizz territory are on mental point 100% of time? Especially when on game? I just don't know if I can be that wired every second which is the problem. Hiking, discussing strategy for stalk, glassing, takes away your total awareness which is normal. I would hope I never get in that position.

Carry what you have confidence in getting one solid shot off because its highly likely that's all the time you will have IF YOU ARE LUCKY!

 

[Mike Matteson]

I get that. However, the two rounds are in totally different leagues.

I realize that. It wasn't to smart to carry a 357mag in Alaska , and possible not in the lower 48 with Griz bears. It was better nothing. Trying to be careful and fully armed, it's kind of hard to do. You can only pack so much. My friend thought he was on the mark. We both had a laugh out of it. When I was bow hunted in Montana I carried a 500 S.W. in a 4". Develop loads long before printed in the reloading hand books. When I bow hunt in AZ, I carry a much lighter handgun, because of a different type of problem. In Vietnam I carried 3 types of weapons. 45,M-16, and grenades. Used 2 a lot. ( M-16, and grenades). Remember the saying. An apple a day kept the Doctor away. I had one in Vietnam. It was " A grenade a day kept the gooks away." When I rifle hunt I only carry a rifle.

 

[Mmac52280]

I have held my tongue as I searched for an old article I read at least 40 years ago. The writer had been part of a group of 4 men who ran a guide service on Kodiak island. In his article, he first covered his last guided hunt, finishing off a Kodiak, wounded by the client. The bear ran to thick cover, and he used his own scent to get the bear to move, albeit at him, and killed it with a head shot with his rifle. As I recall, the rifle was a 30 caliber magnum, shorter barrel, iron sights, for just that kind of work. The bear charged him, running through saplings like grass, and slid to a stop 7 yards from where he was standing. The other reason he was quitting? He was the sole survivor of his guide business, all the others had been killed by bears. Never found the original article, but I never forgot it either.

 

[436]

US Forestry Service Bear Study from 1983, as you can imagine, this has worsened over time.
"In recent years, however, the Forest Service has employed many persons with little or no experience with firearms, and some with a strong aversion to them"

Much more recent defense of life event.
"U.S. Forest Service officials say two employees used a service weapon to fatally shoot a charging brown bear near Sitka last month, the area's third such attack by a sow in August...
They were carrying a large-caliber .375 H&H Magnum rifle, supplied by the Forest Service specifically for bear defense.
"This is what we train people on; this is what we certify people on," Edwards said. "If you need to go to a lethal means, you don't want to undershoot a bear." Hunters handling bear carcasses in the area often find wounds from other firearms that the animals had survived, Edwards said."

As for my comment regarding the "magic" slug, it was pointed at all slugs, that is just "the" slug, and the point was, if one is going to carry a long gun with considerable recoil, why wouldn't you go with what has been proven in Africa to take down bigger and tougher game.

375, 404 Jeff, 416 Rigby, 458 lott... Though I understand availability and cost can be an obstacle

However, I will say this, you use and stand by your recommendation of shotgun

That's integrity, and I respect that, so I will certainly leave it be.

As always, a person can use what they wish, and may we all encounter bears that decide the fight need not be had, but if that should not be the case, hopefully our aim is true and our brand of defense finds its mark.

Personally, I went 458 lott and 500 S&W. 500 grain trophy bonded bearclaw in the lott, testing a 520gr hardcast for the 500 S&W currently, 440gr wide flat nose hardcast is currently the round I carry until the 520s are proved out. Just to be open about that.

My plan is one shot and that is it, that is my bet with my life, one shot, wait until it's too close to miss (as if there is such a thing), my practice for that is coyotes and, of course, targets as well, just shot some steel today.

I wish you all the best, truly.

I don't disagree that big game cartridges aren't the best for any big game, however, the 39-year-old 1983 report used a 12ga 2 3/4 inch with 1 oz 438gr Foster type slug in their test against big game powerhouses like the 460 Wby Mag and 375 H&H Mag... I think the outcome today in many ways might be quite different with today's slug-like the Breneke black magic 3" 602gr at a much higher velocity., ok... I'm not saying the big game cartridge can't outperform the 12ga slug gun, I'm just saying that 12ga with the right load in a nice size shotgun today is more than a match for a big Bear... where you might not get more than one or two shots off. If others would like to read the story here you go just click the PDF https://www.fs.usda.gov/research/treesearch/5573 Just my 0.2 Cheers.