Why no consensus...holding forend and bipod to bag

[Barrelnut]

Have a look at this guy shooting a Savage. It has a good angle from the front and you can see the rifle hop left with every shot. (It starts at 1:30 minutes into the vid.) In a lighter rifle this is more pronounced. The lighter the rifle the quicker the rifle accelerates under recoil and the more the barrel has moved to the left before the bullet exits the barrel. With a heavy long range target rifle you hardly notice this, but it is more of an issue with a lighter magnum rifle like a 300 WM in a Sendero. Other things affect it too, like the hard surface he is on, but the results are pretty much the same.

Theis' method of holding downward pressure on the front part of a rifle sling is a good method in the field. Just need to learn to be consistent with it.

This is also why groups usually tighten up if you move from a bipod to to sand bags or and adjustable padded front rest. The bags and rest tend to stop the left movement you see in the vid below.

[ame]https://youtu.be/fqWvv7j_M3o[/ame]

 

[Greyfox]

IMO, we are unlikely to ever see a concensus in terms of individual rifle holds. There are too many variables. Rifle/barrel weight, recoil, stock design, and shooting position. I have found that LRH imposes a wide variety of different effects compared to the more static target exercises. I can find myself with different clothing, temperatures, shooting positions , and distances.
Some of my thoughts:
-Keep in mind the barrel can move 1/8-1/4" before the bullet leaves the barrel. Make sure it moves as straight back as possible, the same way every time regardless of position.
-Low recoil and heavier barrels are better.
-I stay away from "hard" holds on the forearm and cheek weld, both with little to no pressure, and moderate pull back at the grip. Hard holds are IMO,difficult to reproduce consistently in the field. I don't hold the forearm in prone, preferring rear bag control.
-Practice shots from every possible position to learn how the rifle behaves.
I have used the same rifle/load set-up for about 10 years. Pretty boring, but you sure get to understand where the bullet is going under varied conditions.

 

[Rich Coyle]

IMO, we are unlikely to ever see a concensus in terms of individual rifle holds. There are too many variables. Rifle/barrel weight, recoil, stock design, and shooting position. I have found that LRH imposes a wide variety of different effects compared to the more static target exercises. I can find myself with different clothing, temperatures, shooting positions , and distances.
Some of my thoughts:
-Keep in mind the barrel can move 1/8-1/4" before the bullet leaves the barrel. Make sure it moves as straight back as possible, the same way every time regardless of position.
-Low recoil and heavier barrels are better.
-I stay away from "hard" holds on the forearm and cheek weld, both with little to no pressure, and moderate pull back at the grip. Hard holds are IMO,difficult to reproduce consistently in the field. I don't hold the forearm in prone, preferring rear bag control.
-Practice shots from every possible position to learn how the rifle behaves.
I have used the same rifle/load set-up for about 10 years. Pretty boring, but you sure get to understand where the bullet is going under varied conditions.

I like it!

 

[bigngreen]

Have a look at this guy shooting a Savage. It has a good angle from the front and you can see the rifle hop left with every shot. (It starts at 1:30 minutes into the vid.) In a lighter rifle this is more pronounced. The lighter the rifle the quicker the rifle accelerates under recoil and the more the barrel has moved to the left before the bullet exits the barrel. With a heavy long range target rifle you hardly notice this, but it is more of an issue with a lighter magnum rifle like a 300 WM in a Sendero. Other things affect it too, like the hard surface he is on, but the results are pretty much the same.

Theis' method of holding downward pressure on the front part of a rifle sling is a good method in the field. Just need to learn to be consistent with it.

This is also why groups usually tighten up if you move from a bipod to to sand bags or and adjustable padded front rest. The bags and rest tend to stop the left movement you see in the vid below.

https://youtu.be/fqWvv7j_M3o

Perfect video to highlight poor technique, rear bag is being used as a suggestion and is not of correct type, there is no way to load the bipod, his body position is poor position which increases the jump.

 

[Barrelnut]

Perfect video to highlight poor technique, rear bag is being used as a suggestion and is not of correct type, there is no way to load the bipod, his body position is poor position which increases the jump.

True. He is sloppy. The ears on the rear bag are not even aligned with the rifle which is probably causing some deflection. He also does not have a firm grip on the rifle and probably almost no cheek pressure. Once the rifle rises some, it naturally torques left.

Now watch the second shooter in the vid. (2:10 into the vid) This guy is good. He has discipline, he may be military trained. He does not even use a rear bag! He uses crossed arms and grips the rifle into the arm pit. Kinda like using a stock with a butt hook. notice the rifle does not rise. So the bipod doesn't jump and the rifle does not torque left. He is drilling the target dead center. He is exerting control on the rifle, it is not controlling him.

If you think about it, when not controlling the forearm, the shooter only controlling the rifle from one extreme end of the rifle. The rifle generates a lot of force and torque and acts like a lever. When you hold the forearm on a high recoiling rifle you are taking much of it's leverage away since you now control it in two points.

Gale McMillan actually shoots in the field with his hand on top or the scope. Seen him do it in videos. He is controlling jump and torque that way.

So, I don't see someone who holds the forearm, doesn't use a rear bag, holds the top of the scope, or uses downward pressure with a sling, as an ill informed LR shooter with bad form. They may actually be very experienced tack drivers.

 

[Rich Coyle]

So, I don't see someone who holds the forearm, doesn't use a rear bag, holds the top of the scope, or uses downward pressure with a sling, as an ill informed LR shooter with bad form. They may actually be very experienced tack drivers.

Are you suggesting if someone doesn't hold the front of the rifle down they are not going to be a good shooter?

 

[Barrelnut]

Are you suggesting if someone doesn't hold the front of the rifle down they are not going to be a good shooter?

No, but they might surprise themselves and be an even better shooter if they did.

Are you saying that someone will be a bad shooter if they hold the front of the rifle?

 

[Rich Coyle]

No, but they might surprise themselves and be an even better shooter if they did.

Are you saying that someone will be a bad shooter if they hold the front of the rifle?

I'm not saying anything. I asked a question.

 

[Bullet bumper]

Hold the forend on this Beggs ? Anyone who thinks that one system or theory of holding / support can be applied to every rifle is lacking in experience .
You shoot them the way that produces the best accuracy for you . The guy in the video is experiencing bench bounce from that springy plank bench . He would be far better off on the ground with the bi-pod , if he can still see the target that is.

 

[Danehunter]

My 6.5 CM Ruger Precision Rifle shoots equally well from an Atlas bipod or my bench rest bag/iron support. I'm talking shots to 1,000 yards. Consistent 1/2 MOA groups.

My 6.5 CM Ruger American Predator (with Boyd's laminated stock) also shoots very well from my benchrest bag with flush cup sling swivels. I haven't tried shooting it from my bipod.

But yes, it shoots JUST as well from my backpack because I keep my rain parka folded inside the pack's back pocket and the pack well filled and compression straps tightened down so there is a consistent rest I'm shooting from. This is so the pack is not soft one day and hard another time.

Consistency with how your pack is filled is important, just like consistency in other aspects of shooting.

Eric B.

 

[bigngreen]

All my rifles are set up to detach the bipod in a couple seconds so if I'm shooting of an improvised rest my gun tracks the same, I always can use the same hold because I'm not trying to force the rifle any where, get square behind it with it square in your shoulder and the gun will track much better. When I'm on a bipod I'm loading it forward just enough the the rifle will track back but not jump, I can replicate the tracking on a bench by putting down a towel so the bipod will move instead of skip on the surface, you can also clamp a board to the bench to let you put some load on it so it tracks through. Don't flop your pumpkin on the stock, don't death grip the stock, try shooting with thumb over and beside and stick with the one you like.
For me the easiest way to confirm that my position is solid is I simple pull the gun back and forth, you should see the optic tracking straight back and forth, if you see it kicking or dropping randomly you have stress in your set up and you need to correct it.
I used to be a front end holder and a sling user but in an effort for long range cold bore shots I have to hold my rear rest and make adjustments for vertical, if I'm farting around trying to get the bag perfect so I can hold the front end I was compromising the tracking on the rear bag hence vertical stringing. None of my precision rifles have slings they get in the way and prevent good tracking, on med range gun I may shoot from a position where I'm the only support I'll have a sling but any more all of my rifles can be put into a good tracking situation easily so I haven't had a sling on anything in years.
In the course of a week I shot groups out to 1500 yards both prone and from a bench with the same poi, shot a bull through the neck at 825 from a bipod and sagebrush rear rest in a sweat shirt, shot a cow through the neck at 800, bipod and rear bag heavy carhart coat. Shot a coyote at 865 facing me through the chest with the rifle riding sage brush the whole way. The the same gun a couple years ago a cow elk at such an extreme up angle I was sitting in a wash with the bipod up on the rim and the bottom of the gun on a back pack, she cart wheeled 300 yards down the mountain, many varied positions and rests but I had excellent tracking on all shots and no stress was put into the system by my man handling anything.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I shoot the same as bng. Difference for me is I have never been able to get consistent performance with a bipod. I have just given up on having a bipod on my rifle. I carry shooting sticks in the field. Between the sticks and my backpack I can usually get the rifle supported so that it will track straight back with as little influence from me as possible. I installed an adjustable cheek rest on my rifle so that I can get good cheek weld regardless of the angle of the shot. I have a short face and found in many situations I would have to float my head in order to get eye alignment with the scope.

With the sticks and pack I can duplicate the rifle riding front bag rest and rear bag rest from a bench. Some times I just shoot off the pack. No front or rear rest, jus laying on the pack. Sometimes the pack is the front rest and the sticks go under the rear. What ever it takes for the rifle to sit firmly on target. Then I set myself up with a strong shoulder and a very light touch with the trigger hand. Off hand used to make elevation adjustments if needed. Otherwise off hand used to make me comfortable and stable in the position.

Ideally if my gun is in position for a shot I should be able to get off of it and back on it, or let someone else get on it, and it is still on target.

Steve

 

[Orange Dust]

All Good advice. I can change the POI on my ultra mag 3min with pressure on front or back. You just have to play around with your set up.

 

[coyotezapper]

IMO free recoil shooting is the hardest to master with a hunting rifle. This method was carried over from BR shooters and it probably should have stayed with BR shooting. Hunting rifle stocks are designed differently and it takes time to master with this method. BR stocks are designed to recoil straight back with the bottom of the stocks being very straight and flat. If you go to youtube watch a BR shooters rifle and notice that the barrel only goes straight back with no hop. With most hunting stocks this is hard to do and there is always some hop. If someone wants to master this its probably easier to start with a bipod using forward pressure to learn free recoil. Its technically not free recoil but you will learn the feel on how it should be done.

I shoot with a bipod whenever I can but have no problems shooting off a pack or tree branch using my off hand to hold the fore end. I grip hard enough to control the rifle which does not have to be a death grip, just firm. I have also used the off hand over the scope method and it can work well also.

In a PD town off the bench I shoot free recoil using a Bulls Bag. The rifle fore end fits nicely in the pocket and almost guides the recoil straight back. I may try to change out the filler on my dog-gone-good bags and see if I can't duplicate the Bulls Bag.

There are times at the bench developing loads using a BR front rest that I feel I am not being very consistent and I will go from free recoil to holding the fore end and instantly the groups will be better. Free recoil is hard to master with a hunting rifle.