Why I think the Satterlee and Audette Ladder Tests Work and Why-- You Decide!

[Veteran]

I dont think this link posted correctly in my above posts.
It is from LRH and from top page 7 on its very interesting and applicable to this thread.

HELP WITH SATERLEE VELOCITY TEST

No one said it burns inconsistent and then magically is consistent. But the same thing happens every time you run this test with any combo. You find spots where the velocity doesn't change even though the powder is increased. Sometimes for up to 1 grain of charge increase there is no velocity...

www.longrangehunting.com

 

[Veteran]

Good review after you read all the above......

 

[Veteran]

Also very good to review once you read the above posts.

 

[KSAv8r]

You have fine rifles, a consistent reloading process, and you are lucky.

I am curious your calibers and barrel lengths though....

My Savage .338 Lapua obvious to a blind man has harmonics issues.

I believe that bigger calibers depending on their stocks, float, and barrel design will always have worse harmonics than say a caliber below .30 that is well designed and fitted.

So my answer is.......it all depends....

I have a Savage 110BA in .338 Lapua Magnum that had the same issue. Without lab quality data, I would agree that larger calibers seem to be more sensitive to barrel harmonics.

When I first started reloading for it, I was ready to send it back to Savage. With a 300 grain Berger, Retumbo and Lapua Brass at the low end of the powder scale it was a 4 MOA rifle. Using the OCW load development process I found a node that was showing consistent velocity with low ES/SD numbers without over pressure signs. Further testing of seating depth showed a jump of 0.033" to be what this combination liked best. Now the rifle will consistently shoot 3 shots that covers a dime at 100 yards and ring a 10" steel plate at 1200 yards if I do my part.

I have since repeated this process with Hornady 285 grain ELD-X and H1000 and Hornady 250 grain A-MAX with Retumbo. I'm now back in love with this rifle but at approaching 25 pounds with a Nightforce scope, it isn't something to carry very far if one is hunting with it. YMMV.

 

[Veteran]

I have a Savage 110BA in .338 Lapua Magnum that had the same issue. Without lab quality data, I would agree that larger calibers seem to be more sensitive to barrel harmonics.

When I first started reloading for it, I was ready to send it back to Savage. With a 300 grain Berger, Retumbo and Lapua Brass at the low end of the powder scale it was a 4 MOA rifle. Using the OCW load development process I found a node that was showing consistent velocity with low ES/SD numbers without over pressure signs. Further testing of seating depth showed a jump of 0.033" to be what this combination liked best. Now the rifle will consistently shoot 3 shots that covers a dime at 100 yards and ring a 10" steel plate at 1200 yards if I do my part.

I have since repeated this process with Hornady 285 grain ELD-X and H1000 and Hornady 250 grain A-MAX with Retumbo. I'm now back in love with this rifle but at approaching 25 pounds with a Nightforce scope, it isn't something to carry very far if one is hunting with it. YMMV.

You must have the same one I do.......BA 110 LE 17 lbs. out of the box. 26 inch bbl. 1 to 9 twist.

Mine was a 1.5 MOA rifle before I figured out it was harmonically challenged.......
Below is the shaft collar, how it looked on my rifle, and the results of putting that on the rifle barrel.

 

[Veteran]

Now, I've gone to a more sophisticated rig with an ATS tuner on my barrel, and am in the process of shooting, changing the setting,
and trying to find "the tune".

 

[rem.xp100]

Tuners and collars...........many years ago Browning introduced the "BOSS" and it worked as they advertised to "tune" a barrel and load. Many said it was just snake oil at the time and laughed it off as a gimmick. How things change.......

 

[KSAv8r]

Now, I've gone to a more sophisticated rig with an ATS tuner on my barrel, and am in the process of shooting, changing the setting,
and trying to find "the tune".

I'm a 'happy camper' now since I learned how to tune this beast but please keep us up to date on how this combination works for you. I didn't keep track, but must have gone through 150 rounds of ammo before learning how sensitive this particular caliber/rifle was to type of powder, bullet and seating depth to arrive at something I was satisfied with. Federal Large Rifle Magnum primers were all I could find at the time so have not tested this variable.

 

[Andrew Cowling]

No, barrel vibrations do not change muzzle velocity. They change point of impact.
Go ahead and put one them rubber donuts on your barrel, move it around to see grouping go all over the place, with no change in MV.

I have not seen MV stop rising (much less go down) with incremental load changes through and beyond SAAMI max.
This is probably because my barrels are long enough for the load, so I don't run into excess of diminished returns.

I respectfully disagree. I have done the same testing and have come to the same conclusion. Barrel harmonics can change bullet speed.
I have a 96 swede in 6.5x55 with a 24 inch stainless barrel in a heavy 96 profile and a 3 port muzzle brake with 308 holes. I did my OCW test and found a sweet spot that flattened out with the brake removed. Groups were reasonable at around an inch at 100 metres. I loaded some more rounds at that load with the aim to play with the seating depth at the range. I started with the same seating depth the ladder test showed was the best. Averager velocity with a 140gr SST was 2805fps. I refitted the muzzle brake to do the seating depth tuning and then fired the same loads with the same seating depth. The shot went a little higher and were a 1/2 inch group. Cant be the projectile hitting the brake baffle as it is a 308 brake. I then decided to shoot it over the chronograph again. Now, my velocity was consistently 2825fps. Some how that muzzle brake had tightened up the groups and increase the projectile speed by an average of 20fps.

The only valid explanation is the barrel harmonics had changed by fitting the brake.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

Deep stuff here...

 

[judgebill]

So, I'm new to reloading. Like, I started buying powder and bullets in 2021. I watched a hundred hours of youtube videos, read reloading manuals cover to cover, and I am fortunate in a way that is beyond words to have a mentor. My buddy 338 dude literally sat with me for hours and walked me through the process from beginning to end, at least a dozen times, all while not allowing me to distract him with my never ending questions. So, first cartridge I loaded, I set up a ladder test, .3gr increments, 3 cartridges at each charge, and ran the crono on all 30rds, kept notes, etc. That was after buying a modified case and finding seating depth and all of that.

Fast forward to today. I've now loaded for 4 other cartridges, (22-250, 6mm arc, 300blk, and .308), and maybe another one or two that I can't remember. I literally go to the hornady manual, find the middle of the road load, find max mag length, then shorten my coal by .005, and I load 10rds and test them. Every single time I have had a load that shot .5moa or better. So... I did nothing but load more of the same and shoot them.

My question to you gentlemen is:

Assuming what I just said is generally true for most cartridges, do you really think it's worth your time to chase this process? How much time do you spend to get a load that shoots .2moa better than mine? I'm just shooting animals, and mostly coyotes, so a 1moa system will do everything I need. A .5moa system is superb, and I'm doing nothing described in this thread and achieving that over and over. Maybe I'm just lucky..

 

[judgebill]

I began loading over 50 years ago the same way. I didn't use measuring equipment, just punched out the old primer, sized the neck only, inserted a new primer, measured powder (checking every 10 rounds with the scale), put in the bullet (no measuring how deeply seated) and verified at the range the group would be 1" or even 1 1/4"...all acceptable. Mostly shooting 22/250 at jackrabbits and coyotes. They never complained where they were hit, just died right there. Then I took a recess from loading for about 25 years while trying to earn money to go hunting and buy stuff. Now I'm back with measuring equipment and components and yes, mostly load for a .338 LM. Love the cartridge (Fierce rifle, 26" barrel with muzzle brake, shoots regularly into 3/4" if I do my job). Have fun trying Cutting Edge bullets (252, 265, 275) Badlands (250 and 275), Hornady (250, 270,285) and some 300 gr I shoot in a Ruger PR, same caliber. Enjoy reading the discussions here but since I'm primarily a hunter anything that shoots into an inch is really good...and my personal max range is under 500 yards so my concerns don't reach the level some others might have. Bottom line, it works for me and I have no anxieties. Just fun.

 

[Stammster]

I respectfully disagree. I have done the same testing and have come to the same conclusion. Barrel harmonics can change bullet speed.
I have a 96 swede in 6.5x55 with a 24 inch stainless barrel in a heavy 96 profile and a 3 port muzzle brake with 308 holes. I did my OCW test and found a sweet spot that flattened out with the brake removed. Groups were reasonable at around an inch at 100 metres. I loaded some more rounds at that load with the aim to play with the seating depth at the range. I started with the same seating depth the ladder test showed was the best. Averager velocity with a 140gr SST was 2805fps. I refitted the muzzle brake to do the seating depth tuning and then fired the same loads with the same seating depth. The shot went a little higher and were a 1/2 inch group. Cant be the projectile hitting the brake baffle as it is a 308 brake. I then decided to shoot it over the chronograph again. Now, my velocity was consistently 2825fps. Some how that muzzle brake had tightened up the groups and increase the projectile speed by an average of 20fps.

The only valid explanation is the barrel harmonics had changed by fitting the brake.

Only valid explanation?

How about a change in temperature?
How about the added back pressure caused by the brake?
How about the "effective" lengthening of the barrel?

 

[Veteran]

Only valid explanation?

How about a change in temperature?
How about the added back pressure caused by the brake?
How about the "effective" lengthening of the barrel?

Back pressure would decrease velocity. He reported it increased.

Since the brake is not rifled and is overbore in diameter, does it actually act as a longer barrel? Not sure.....

Yes, higher temps might account for higher burn rate and increased velocity. Thats possible.