Why Hammer Bullets Are Always Faster

[adam32+P]

That what you said is not true in the , context you are describing the 170 gr is faster than the 180 gr Barnes just as it's Slower than the 165 gr Hornady . That example really means absolutely nothing . Maybe you should call Weatherby and ask why and how they load their ammo . I have not a clue how they achieve their load data , and I doubt you do either . If I had a guess it probably has more to do with free bore and accuracy , as we all know Weatherbys have a lot of freebore. I'm sure pressure may be a factor also .

So shouldn't the 170 hammer be faster than the 180? None of these comparisons are apples to apples, not even the OP so yes, this thread is pretty pointless.

 

[Hard rock]

117 HH by the way

Looks like you got it figured out .

 

[Hard rock]

So shouldn't the 170 hammer be faster than the 180? None of these comparisons are apples to apples, not even the OP so yes, this thread is pretty pointless.

Have a nice day

 

[Muddyboots]

Monos are longer and do not compress like lead/copper bullets. This tends to drive pressure up for ex. Also hardness of copper impacts things. As noted there are several factors at play.

So cup and core bullets are compressed? Monos drive pressure up? Design irrelevant?

I have been shooting Hammers in same brass lots now into 4x load and primer pockets still nice and snug. I read pressure on any load whether cup and core or monos. I don't have a pressure testing instrument but every reloader is expected to read pressure signs from multiple indicators. A load manual is not a fail safe process since it cannot predict the reloaders process so the manual ALWAYS states read pressure. Max loads are not a given since loads versus rifle is an unknown. How? We don't have instrumentation? So every reloading manual I have used in last 45 years states read pressure. Not one has ever stated don't load without a pressure instrument.

I have shot ton of Hammers in .243, .270 and 30-06, 300WSM and 300WM. I run ladders with them EXACTLY same way I do for any other bullet. I am extremely conservative in reading pressure which has been well documented in loads I have submitted. I have stopped short on cup and core bullets in my 300WSM due to a short throat I wanted for light bullet jumps. Which means I NEVER got close to max BOOK load for a Nosler bullet.

Every single Hammer bullet I have shot has been faster BECAUSE I took advantage if their PDR design and used faster powders than ordinarily used for common weight bullet.

Pressure indicators don't change because of Hammer PDR, read them as you would normally do. Shooting Hammers to their maximum potential REQUIRES different thought process in selecting optimum powders and confidence in your own experience in reading standard pressure indicators.

 

[Calvin45]

It is well documented that traditional pressure signs do not correlate to anything and may only show up well after exceeding pressure limits. Do web searches if interested. Hornady has some recent podcast out on this I think.

If want something useful , I load hammers to published barnes tsx since It is also a banded mono. Data and velocities and charges have roughly matched barnes data in 3 cartridges so far (6.5 creed, 270 win, 300 win). Leads me to believe they are similar but dont know until hammer or some powder company publishes pressure tested data with hammers

Lou

On the flip side I've also had factory Winchester ammo show primer cratering and ejector swipe…wasn't too worried about it either way

 

[Rich Coyle]

That is the exact point he is making. You aren't getting free velocity without more pressure and you have no idea how much more pressure. If you use max book data for some other equal weight bullet you are likely pushing pressure past the "safe" point and traditional pressure signs may not show. It's up to you to decide what you are comfortable doing.

Mostly I shot wildcats. There is/are not published data. My loads are obviously safe since some have been rebarreled a few times.

 

[Rich Coyle]

I have an interest in "anything" that relates to Hammer bullets so anything written in this post is not meaningless!!! WTH did some of you guys put razor blades in your Wheaties for breakfast!!!! Someone took the time to write their opinion, at least respect it!! My limited experience with Hammers is to start low and work up. For whatever reason I've had pressure issues with four rifles, two in 35 Whelen, one in 30-06 and another AR custom match barrel. It's not to say that I didn't get what I was looking for in a load, it's just that when I started too high, like 1 1/2 grains below maximum, I had some pressure issues.

I don't think you know what respect means. If someone says something that makes no sense to the majority of people, it is then meaningless.

 

[Rich Coyle]

A change in resistance to getting pushed down the barrel will surely effect a bullet's velocity also, correct? Alloy composition will effect hardness, a 0.0001" difference in diameter will effect resistance going down a bore, bullet shape such as a bore rider design effects bore resistance, etc, etc, etc....

To me, it seems like an over simplification to say pressure is the only thing that can effect velocities. 60,000 psi of pressure will surely produce different velocity if 2 bullets that weigh the same have different hardness, diameters, and bullet shapes?

.

Bob Noslser told me, "Peak pressure destroys guns. Average pressure imparts velocity." Maybe some bullets don't generate pressure rapidly so they get exposed to a longer high average pressure. I'm not a engineer. So I excel at ignorance and prejudice.

 

[Lou270]

So cup and core bullets are compressed? Monos drive pressure up? Design irrelevant?

I have been shooting Hammers in same brass lots now into 4x load and primer pockets still nice and snug. I read pressure on any load whether cup and core or monos. I don't have a pressure testing instrument but every reloader is expected to read pressure signs from multiple indicators. A load manual is not a fail safe process since it cannot predict the reloaders process so the manual ALWAYS states read pressure. Max loads are not a given since loads versus rifle is an unknown. How? We don't have instrumentation? So every reloading manual I have used in last 45 years states read pressure. Not one has ever stated don't load without a pressure instrument.

I have shot ton of Hammers in .243, .270 and 30-06, 300WSM and 300WM. I run ladders with them EXACTLY same way I do for any other bullet. I am extremely conservative in reading pressure which has been well documented in loads I have submitted. I have stopped short on cup and core bullets in my 300WSM due to a short throat I wanted for light bullet jumps. Which means I NEVER got close to max BOOK load for a Nosler bullet.

Every single Hammer bullet I have shot has been faster BECAUSE I took advantage if their PDR design and used faster powders than ordinarily used for common weight bullet.

Pressure indicators don't change because of Hammer PDR, read them as you would normally do. Shooting Hammers to their maximum potential REQUIRES different thought process in selecting optimum powders and confidence in your own experience in reading standard pressure indicators.

I am not sure what your point is. For most bullets there is pressure tested data. If you are exceeding the velocity of these loads with same powder/bullets with "your load method" you are probably running higher pressures. This may not blow you up or have pressure signs.

There is no pressure tested hammer data proving any of these claims of higher velocity. There are some theories but they are not tested. Period. End of story. There is no debate possible to this

You may be perfectly correct that hammers give more velocity with faster powders. Just because you see this on a chronograph without pressure signs is meaningless and proves nothing. You see this same thing happen in a pressure lab across many bullets and powder combos it means something. Sorry but that is only way to prove this

Browse the latest 2023 hodgdon manual if you want a blurb on loading monos. They included hammers in the discussion and said they see no difference in loading different monos and on average drive higher pressure than cup and cores.

Lou

 

[Calvin45]

That's ridiculous and I wonder what motivates hodgdon to say that. Maybe the hornady GmX / Cx bullets need to not be revealed as the turds they are in comparison.

Because there's a reason Barnes bullets went from x to tsx. It's not just about copper fouling, I've shot X and tsx bullets and can tell you the tsx is capable of higher velocity becuase it doesn't hit pressure nearly as soon in load workup. All about total bearing surface to weight ratio

Not just a hammer thing. Gs custom uses drive bands to achieve the same pressure reduction and it really does work compared to barnes, Nosler etip, hornady cx….

 

[Lou270]

If I remember gist they are saying all makers are using some variation on barnes tsx design these days and all about the same. Basically they said they make sure to publish load data for one type or mono and should be ok for others with typical caveats to work up

Lou

 

[Alibiiv]

I don't think you know what respect means. If someone says something that makes no sense to the majority of people, it is then meaningless.

Normally I do not answer or respond to a rude answer such as the one you have written here; however, this one takes the cake!! First and foremost you do not know me, so you could not and do not know whether I understand what respect means or "not"!! Secondly respect does not require the approval of the mass, it is an individual's right to determine whether something is respectful or "not", "not" yours or anyone else's right but an individual's decision. Someone can write or believe in something and just because it goes across your grain or beliefs doesn't make is "meaningless" and give someone the right to embarrass, berate, or insult that person. I have always read your replies and your responses with interest and thought highly of them, not so much after this remark!!! There was no call for this post at all other than to be rude to someone who disagreed with you. I am on this forum to share and get information from other people who have a common interest of shooting and reloading and firearms in general, not to be insulted as you have here.

 

[Muddyboots]

For most bullets?
Not custom bullets.

Cutting Edge been in business a long time and they just started some pressure testing, they don't have a load manual and it will prob take years.
Bergers use QL.
Badlands is custom bullet and no.
Fury custom no

I am not aware of any custom bullet manufacturer that has a load manual based on actual pressure testing.

Hodgdon has their own agenda to protect their own liability associated with the use of their powders.

Reading pressure is not meaningless without instrumentation. If that is true, there will be no load data. Load data is only relevant to the manufacturer's dataset and BTW lot of pressure testing is with pressure barrels and not relevant to a rifle barrel. So useless. Which means you are required to read pressure indicators.
You stated: If you are exceeding the velocity of these loads with same powder/bullets with "your load method" you are probably running higher pressures. This may not blow you up or have pressure signs.

You have ZERO understanding of my loading parameters nor do you have one shred of evidence I am in pressure. You have a skewed opinion of how to read pressure and you believe it applies to everyone. Furthermore, you have no clue of my various rifles added freebore which changes pressure curves but yet you are opinionated on my loading process and believe you "know" what I am doing.

Lastly, The signs of pressure can be exhibited in a book load and if you do not understand how to both visually inspect and measure, you will be in pressure. Just because a bullet has been pressure tested does not preclude you from interpreting the signs of pressure when you are doing load development even cup and core. A max load is not a given, you are REQUIRED to interpret pressure from the indicators presented. You can be over pressure well inside a book load.

At the end of the day, let's agree to disagree. An experienced safe conscientious reloader will utilize all signs of pressure to load any bullet. An experienced reloader does not need a pressure instrument to load a bullet.

 

[Lee7588]

Would it have been better , if the OP said most of the time , instead of always or ,are you always this critical over a phrase and the word always . I personally can read in context what the OP meant . I always give the benefit of doubt.

Always is an absolute, being that there is nothing that is beyond it. So I would say yes different verbage would have benefited