Why can’t we get good dies!

[bigngreen]

That will not work and bad info! You must use a resize reamer which is smaller in order to get any sizing. A chamber reamer is totally useless to make a resize die.

I had a machinist years ago make me wildcat dies from Redding S and he'd control the heat treating to move the die, he could make a sizing die with a chamber reamer but at the time it was not interesting information so I did not pursue the hows, the dies worked flawless and all I sent him was the chamber reamer and a die set of the parent case.

 

[BountyHunter]

Y

I had a machinist years ago make me wildcat dies from Redding S and he'd control the heat treating to move the die, he could make a sizing die with a chamber reamer but at the time it was not interesting information so I did not pursue the hows, the dies worked flawless and all I sent him was the chamber reamer and a die set of the parent case.

Yes but that is not how most think it is done. You dealt with an artist there. Most gunsmiths do not do their own heat treating and do not have the capacity to control it and measure until it is sent back

 

[Dan Carey]

The die manufacturers don't want the web inside the die. The web is solid and as such it will not "resize" well. I did some work on 204 brass not holding a primer because of extreme pressure. I made a die to size down the web area which also shrink the diameter of the primer pocket. The problem I ran into was the amount of force needed to size the web exceeded the capacity of the rim to extract it from the die. I worked this out by not using a shell holder just a case driver and a steel rod to knock the case out of the die.

 

[Jeff Heeg osoh]

Just a few things I have seen in time.
Even though we do not like hearing about it pressure tends to bring out the ghost in issues.

Non pressure issues can still surface when
The brass or round fired does not have a lot of angle or tapper in the case body. Many fall into this group.
The design of the primary and secondary extraction in the action design is not aggressive enough to function as needed.
A full length sizing die is not pushing or squeezing the case body enough to meet the specs needed for the chamber.
And some times the neck diameter of the chamber is to tight in reference to the seated bullet and brass being used thus pinching tight when fired causing the neck to grab and also stretching the brass case thus not getting the normal case size spring back needed for a smooth extraction. This also causes flyers and inconsistency in speeds and groups do to the erratic on off inconsistencies of the pinch.
Certain brass cases were manufactured that are too thick in the wall and case head area that would not spring back enough after fired and would give a hard extraction and false pressure issue.

Just a few ideas that I have seen in time through all the years of shooting and reloading.


I have always used full length dies for my 260, 338LM, 375 and 416s with great results and long brass life.

For the 375s and 416s we used Warner Dies and Whidden.

Hope some of this helps


I am osoh
JH

 

[Elkhunter1983]

Just trying to accommodate. This is off of the first page of Whidden Gunworks website:

"Our Custom dies will solve problems such as sticky extraction and the dreaded "Bolt click" without over working your brass."

Link as requested:

Custom Reloading Dies - Whidden Gunworks

Custom Dies We have currently suspended the acceptance of new custom die orders. All orders currently in process will be fulfilled as promised. Whether

www.whiddengunworks.com

An enlightening thread to say the least -

Thats false advertising. If you set a mark, whidden will miss it.

 

[Rhovee]

Whidden uses the same theory from BR cartridges to big magnums. .002 on the shoulder and .200 line with .001 spring back doesn't cut it on the big boys.

 

[Mikecr]

You can bet that from the moment a reloading concept 1st caught on, there was snake oil to sell.
Nothing has changed

The problem with big area chambers is that everything is moving more.
The cause is our failure to PREVENT it. Instead, we try to counter the damage done with what amounts to tail chasing.

When cases grow to interference fit with a chamber, that is a problem we caused. And it's really too late to 'fix'.
My whole life the BR mob has openly worshiped a need for ever more clearances at this point.
They sound like the shade tree mechanics of the sixties, who touted the same thing with their horrible engine builds.

The right answer is nearly always opposite. The dynamic clearances are already too high.
To keep brass from expanding into chamber interference, don't let it expand into yielding. Not even once.
Allow only expansion amounts within normal springback.
That means as little body clearances, from new brass dimensions, as possible & practical.
It means reducing chamber expansion as well.

On firing with sloppy fit to chambers, the cases yield through all clearance beyond springback distances. The chamber, which would contain and stop that expansion, is expanding itself. Then the brass springs back only to a larger yielded dimension, while the chamber springs back fully, to leave interference fit and popping extraction.
Reduce or stop that issue, and you'll reduce or stop the need to recover from it.
If you set up no more than 1thou clearance at .200 datum from case head, expansion will never go into yielding. Your chamber should not let it. So the case will fully recover, clear of chamber, for proper extraction.

You can reduce chamber clearances with a pencil and reamer print.
Reducing chamber expansion takes an earlier plan. You need as much barrel steel around the chamber as possible & practical.
Larger/modified action ring, fine threaded, coned breech support. Don't compromise this direction for a recoil lug, do away with that. Instead, cut abutments into the underside of the action, to be bedded as a recoil lug would have been. Bigger barrel blank shank.
To reduce case lengthening (body/shoulders) for easier bolt turn and reduced sizing & trimming needs, improve the case design. Back to pencil and reamer print. Lower body angle, higher shoulder angle.
You can fill out a print for a sizing reamer as well. Have your die made to YOUR plan.

If you go this route, you'll be able to run higher pressures. You may not need so large a cartridge to hit your goal.
Maybe go smaller, and it all goes even better. Animal death is just as certain from a 260AI at viable 65Kpsi, as a 264wm @ viable 55Kpsi. It may seem complicated, but which is really more complicated: following a plan, or following everyone else?

 

[Dean2]

MikeCR very good post.

I read some at the beginning and a few of the posts near the end. Hard to believe this is still going after 10 pages. Don't see much new being added. Known issue, simple fix with custom dies, convincing Redding and RCBS it is an issue isn't assisted by more posts on here. Best to send them email like I have. If they get enough of them they may actually do something about it.

 

[Bob Wright]

Another step is that experts in the field of reamers, dies and barrel manufacturers should devise a new specification to tighten up and eliminate the overlapping tolerances created by SAAMI.
I understand factory offerings like the added tolerance, but the aftermarket is where this focus should be. We know it can be controlled, so why not?

 

[Alex Wheeler]

You can bet that from the moment a reloading concept 1st caught on, there was snake oil to sell.
Nothing has changed

The problem with big area chambers is that everything is moving more.
The cause is our failure to PREVENT it. Instead, we try to counter the damage done with what amounts to tail chasing.

When cases grow to interference fit with a chamber, that is a problem we caused. And it's really too late to 'fix'.
My whole life the BR mob has openly worshiped a need for ever more clearances at this point.
They sound like the shade tree mechanics of the sixties, who touted the same thing with their horrible engine builds.

The right answer is nearly always opposite. The dynamic clearances are already too high.
To keep brass from expanding into chamber interference, don't let it expand into yielding. Not even once.
Allow only expansion amounts within normal springback.
That means as little body clearances, from new brass dimensions, as possible & practical.
It means reducing chamber expansion as well.

On firing with sloppy fit to chambers, the cases yield through all clearance beyond springback distances. The chamber, which would contain and stop that expansion, is expanding itself. Then the brass springs back only to a larger yielded dimension, while the chamber springs back fully, to leave interference fit and popping extraction.
Reduce or stop that issue, and you'll reduce or stop the need to recover from it.
If you set up no more than 1thou clearance at .200 datum from case head, expansion will never go into yielding. Your chamber should not let it. So the case will fully recover, clear of chamber, for proper extraction.

You can reduce chamber clearances with a pencil and reamer print.
Reducing chamber expansion takes an earlier plan. You need as much barrel steel around the chamber as possible & practical.
Larger/modified action ring, fine threaded, coned breech support. Don't compromise this direction for a recoil lug, do away with that. Instead, cut abutments into the underside of the action, to be bedded as a recoil lug would have been. Bigger barrel blank shank.
To reduce case lengthening (body/shoulders) for easier bolt turn and reduced sizing & trimming needs, improve the case design. Back to pencil and reamer print. Lower body angle, higher shoulder angle.
You can fill out a print for a sizing reamer as well. Have your die made to YOUR plan.

If you go this route, you'll be able to run higher pressures. You may not need so large a cartridge to hit your goal.
Maybe go smaller, and it all goes even better. Animal death is just as certain from a 260AI at viable 65Kpsi, as a 264wm @ viable 55Kpsi. It may seem complicated, but which is really more complicated: following a plan, or following everyone else?

I have to say this can work, but not with every case. We do it in the BR case, about .001 over at the base. It works for a few reasons. That particular brass moves relatively easily. It also has a rather short solid web which does not go up into the chamber very far. Now on other cases where the solid web is much thicker and gets up into the chamber farther, any expansion of that web will bring the brass above it with it and give you a clicker. The thickness of the brass just in front of the web is much more on something like a .300 Norma vs a .308. The dies have to be smaller to move that tougher brass the same amount as the lighter brass. I have gone through a lot of resize reamers figuring out what works with different cartridges and what works on some cases does not work on others. Keep in mind that for any given case the die has to be a certain amount smaller to give the sizing you want, how much smaller depends on the cartridge itself as well as the brass manufacturer. You cant make a die much smaller than the case head unless you want to crack it. So tightening up the chamber like you do can work on some cases and it can get you in trouble on others. You know what your doing, but I do not recommend this for the average guy that does not want to go through a learning curve.
The next question is, is there a benefit to tighter fitting brass in the chamber? I would say the current trend in Benchrest is to give them a little more room. The guns seem less finicky. Even the amount of shoulder bump can effect accuracy. Would it show up in a hunting rifle? I doubt it.

 

[KS2506]

Been reloading since 1965 for both factory and custom rifles. Have used both factory dies and custom dies. Must be hard of hearing. Never heard a clicker. If is caused by the bolt opening, why worry about it. It amazes me that such a insignificant sound can create 10 pages of discussion.

 

[Blacktailer]

Been reloading since 1965 for both factory and custom rifles. Have used both factory dies and custom dies. Must be hard of hearing. Never heard a clicker. If is caused by the bolt opening, why worry about it. It amazes me that such a insignificant sound can create 10 pages of discussion.

New rabbit holes are being invented every day.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

The sound is not the problem. Its the force you have to put on the bolt handle to create the sound. Many people just throw brass away when extraction problems happen. Really you should be able to get as many firings out of a case as you want.

 

[Roninco]

Been reloading since 1965 for both factory and custom rifles. Have used both factory dies and custom dies. Must be hard of hearing. Never heard a clicker. If is caused by the bolt opening, why worry about it. It amazes me that such a insignificant sound can create 10 pages of discussion.

"Clicker" is merely a symptom of another problem well discussed in the previous pages.