Why are custom rifles so Pricey??

[rscott5028]

Let me ask another question that might relay my question better. Can I build a rifle myself using quality parts and expect the same accuracy? Having the smith do the barrel work and saving myself at least $1000, is this a realistic expectation?

You won't save much unless you're doing a simple Savage barrel swap.

I bought a lathe and have done several rifles myself with great results.

But, I have to admit that I am not a professional. I don't have the cartridge nicely engraved on the barrel. I can see streaks where I didin't bother to polish out all of my barrel. There might be other little nics and dings. I'm eager to go shoot and I tell myself that I'll finish the job later which I never seem to get around to.

Larry Potterfield has a commercial running that points out some differences between professional and amature workmanship.

There are quite a few hacks in the profession. So, it pays to check out the smith before giving them your business. That's just another great benefit of this forum where their workmanship will be represented and discussed.

-- richard

 

[NesikaChad]

Like I stated before I never questioned any smiths ability to do go work. To break my question down a little, what services other then installing a barrel do the smiths perform on a custom rifle that justifies at LEAST $1000.00 over the parts and barrel install. Now as I have made clear this is an honest question. Is there a lot involved in installing a trigger that makes it a job for a gunsmith? Now we have already confirmed that stock work can really add cost to a build and that is probably where some of that expense shows up. There are some rifles that I understand the higher cost. Take Allen Precision Rifles, He is not only selling the rifle but the cartridges that he perfected and all the knowledge gained from extensive testing. He is selling something unique with those rifles. I also understand an increase in cost when offering an accuracy GUARANTEE. there are risks involved in doing this that are out of the smiths control like barrel quality. But to just claim the rifle is a 1/2moa rifle and not guarantee it does not in my eyes justify higher costs.

Let me ask another question that might relay my question better. Can I build a rifle myself using quality parts and expect the same accuracy? Having the smith do the barrel work and saving myself at least $1000, is this a realistic expectation?

First:

It appears the bold assumption is being made that parts just "fall together" and with the wave of a magical wand, the gun looks and shoots great. Lot of spectators arrogance if that's the belief.

I am a strong advocate for dispelling much of a mythical BS that goes along with building rifles. Some like to think only they have the magical potion that makes their guns perform above all others. I prefer focus on well established machining fundamentals for my gunmaking. Applying and sticking to fundamentals doesn't make it anymore affordable to you. It does reduce costs to guys like us though because we only did the job once.

Second: A thousand dollars goes a short distance in gun land. 30 years ago the gun world may have operated "a hundred dollars at a time." Now its thousands. Parts cost more, overhead is greater, and labor also increases the bottom line. Demand also has much to do with it. The good shops are never starved for work. The exceptional ones get to pick and choose what they want to do.

Demand increases the price tag. Capitalism 101 my friend.

It never ceases to amaze me how a client will gruff over the gun cost, only to go out and drop $1500 on a scope.

In summary if your wanting a rifle on the cheap, go to a sporting goods store. If you want a rifle built to specifications tailored to an application, then talk to someone like me and bring an ice cold VISA card cause I'm gonna thaw it out for you.

All the best,

Chad

 

[Edd]

Let me ask another question that might relay my question better. Can I build a rifle myself using quality parts and expect the same accuracy? Having the smith do the barrel work and saving myself at least $1000, is this a realistic expectation?

You can answer that better than anyone because you know your ability better than anyone else. Rifle builders use quality parts but it still takes time to do the work.

In post #6, J E Custom said it takes 15-25 hours to to build a rifle. That's probably at a minimum of $65 per hour, do the math. How many hours will it take you and how much is your time worth.

Also will the workmanship be as good regardless of how many hours you spend. Sometimes a person gets some satisfaction from doing something themselves even if the workmanship isn't as good.

Generally, when it comes to skilled work such as this, you are better off letting someone else do what they do and you keep doing what you do to earn money to pay them.

Did you watch NesikaChads video? You could get a night job at McDonalds and earn enough money to pay him to bed your action in less time than you could do a comparable job.

 

[dodgefreak8]

You can answer that better than anyone because you know your ability better than anyone else. Rifle builders use quality parts but it still takes time to do the work.

In post #6, J E Custom said it takes 15-25 hours to to build a rifle. That's probably at a minimum of $65 per hour, do the math. How many hours will it take you and how much is your time worth.

Also will the workmanship be as good regardless of how many hours you spend. Sometimes a person gets some satisfaction from doing something themselves even if the workmanship isn't as good.

Generally, when it comes to skilled work such as this, you are better off letting someone else do what they do and you keep doing what you do to earn money to pay them.

Did you watch NesikaChads video? You could get a night job at McDonalds and earn enough money to pay him to bed your action in less time than you could do a comparable job.

I have no idea how to make this any more clear but I am going to try.... If I pay a smith to chamber and install the barrel on my custom action... buy quality parts i.e. bottom metal, trigger etc...... I am fairly confident that I can "bolt" the gun together in under 2 hrs. I have taken an over complicated bedding job out of the picture using a Hart stock with a bedding block. I am sure this is done on a cnc machine exactly like the video. I will have the action skim bedded to the stock. Ok now I don't care if the rifle is $3500 or $10000, what are they doing for the extra $$$ and time. I am not trying to compare a gunsmiths knowledge and equiptemnt to my own. I NEED to know this so that I can decide if I want to have a smith do 100% of the build or TRY it myself. I am simply trying to understand if I am missing something. What magical thing are they doing over and beyond chambering and installing the barrel. That is all I want to know

 

[Edd]

I am sure this is done on a cnc machine exactly like the video.

I'm pretty sure it isn't. I suspect the difference will compare to a baseball bat that was made with an axe.

 

[Fitch]

I have no idea how to make this any more clear but I am going to try.... If I pay a smith to chamber and install the barrel on my custom action... buy quality parts i.e. bottom metal, trigger etc...... I am fairly confident that I can "bolt" the gun together in under 2 hrs.

Right! So what are you waiting for? Talk is cheap. Go do it.

Fitch

 

[NesikaChad]

I have no idea how to make this any more clear but I am going to try.... If I pay a smith to chamber and install the barrel on my custom action... buy quality parts i.e. bottom metal, trigger etc...... I am fairly confident that I can "bolt" the gun together in under 2 hrs. I have taken an over complicated bedding job out of the picture using a Hart stock with a bedding block. I am sure this is done on a cnc machine exactly like the video. I will have the action skim bedded to the stock. Ok now I don't care if the rifle is $3500 or $10000, what are they doing for the extra $$$ and time. I am not trying to compare a gunsmiths knowledge and equiptemnt to my own. I NEED to know this so that I can decide if I want to have a smith do 100% of the build or TRY it myself. I am simply trying to understand if I am missing something. What magical thing are they doing over and beyond chambering and installing the barrel. That is all I want to know

If the $ drives your boat then I suggest this:

Buy the best components you can afford. Don't skimp on the barrel and definitely don't skimp on who you have fit it to the action.

Buy either a Manners chassis setup or an H/S, B/C stock. All have chassis systems.

Slap it together. Likely your biggest challenge will be trimming a guard screw at this point. You may have to whittle on the bolt handle inlet a little bit to.

Don't bed it, don't do anything else. It won't make a difference anyway on a stock like this.

Then go shoot it till the barrel doesn't have any wrinkles left on the inside. It'll shoot fine and you'll fit right in with 90% of those on the range along side of you. Not a thing wrong with that. (seriously)


If you want a Camaro with some fancy wheels and a nice stereo then there's your answer. If you want a hand fitted Lingenfelter Vette then keep saving your shekels and when your ready, find the smith that floats your boat. Do what your told, he'll do what he's told. Don't ride his *** over the cost. He'll likely tell you to pound sand.

It's not my place or anyone's here to attempt to justify the added costs to what it takes to build a rifle. You either perceive the value or you don't. Its obvious you don't as many here have attempted to convince you where the money goes and yet you keep asking the same question as if it'll eventually sink in that we are all misguided.

Why does a steak at Sizzler go for 12.95 yet a 5 star steakhouse gets over $100 a plate?

Get the chassis system and go pound the X ring or critter like a stallion.

Good luck.

C.


Last:

I can assure you there isn't a chassis system mass produced today on CNC equipment like what you see in my video. I surface model every single action I build a gun on. Each one is individually measured, mapped, drawn, and used to program the inletting in the stock. Short of a one off custom fitted unit, there isn't a single chassis setup like that anywhere. The floor metals aren't inletted with a dremel and bedded either. Each one of those is mapped, measured, and programmed for a 1:1 drop in fit. "Drop in" means you don't need a crowbar to get it out if you decide to take your rifle apart either. It slips in/out and doesn't have a gap between the piece/stock that you can park a car between.

None of my full builds are done using chassis setups either. They are pillar bedded with resin. They aren't skim bedded either. Overcomplicated? You bet your ***, but it gets results and compliments from just about anyone who appreciates how much effort it takes to deliver that level of presentation.

 

[rcdinaz]

I think the guy had a valid question and no one should be too hostile. The car analogy was one of the best you can find a shade tree mechanic and save a ton but if you want something done by the guys with the reputation in the industry of consistently having customers that are giddy with their results you pay WAY more. Ask Chip Foose to build you a car and there is not going to be a discussion on the cost of parts or how soon your car will show up. There are details that you would never think of that come out of people who have the highest level of expertise and if you are not happy most of them are not happy and want to fix it. Besides $150 an hour for any type of mechanical work is not out of whack for any industry. If a guy spends 6 hours on your rifle that would be $900.

 

[dodgefreak8]

If the $ drives your boat then I suggest this:

Buy the best components you can afford. Don't skimp on the barrel and definitely don't skimp on who you have fit it to the action.

Buy either a Manners chassis setup or an H/S, B/C stock. All have chassis systems.

Slap it together. Likely your biggest challenge will be trimming a guard screw at this point. You may have to whittle on the bolt handle inlet a little bit to.

Don't bed it, don't do anything else. It won't make a difference anyway on a stock like this.

Then go shoot it till the barrel doesn't have any wrinkles left on the inside. It'll shoot fine and you'll fit right in with 90% of those on the range along side of you. Not a thing wrong with that. (seriously)


If you want a Camaro with some fancy wheels and a nice stereo then there's your answer. If you want a hand fitted Lingenfelter Vette then keep saving your shekels and when your ready, find the smith that floats your boat. Do what your told, he'll do what he's told. Don't ride his *** over the cost. He'll likely tell you to pound sand.

It's not my place or anyone's here to attempt to justify the added costs to what it takes to build a rifle. You either perceive the value or you don't. Its obvious you don't as many here have attempted to convince you where the money goes and yet you keep asking the same question as if it'll eventually sink in that we are all misguided.

Why does a steak at Sizzler go for 12.95 yet a 5 star steakhouse gets over $100 a plate?

Get the chassis system and go pound the X ring or critter like a stallion.

Good luck.

C.


Last:

I can assure you there isn't a chassis system mass produced today on CNC equipment like what you see in my video. I surface model every single action I build a gun on. Each one is individually measured, mapped, drawn, and used to program the inletting in the stock. Short of a one off custom fitted unit, there isn't a single chassis setup like that anywhere. The floor metals aren't inletted with a dremel and bedded either. Each one of those is mapped, measured, and programmed for a 1:1 drop in fit. "Drop in" means you don't need a crowbar to get it out if you decide to take your rifle apart either. It slips in/out and doesn't have a gap between the piece/stock that you can park a car between.

None of my full builds are done using chassis setups either. They are pillar bedded with resin. They aren't skim bedded either. Overcomplicated? You bet your ***, but it gets results and compliments from just about anyone who appreciates how much effort it takes to deliver that level of presentation.

Ok now this is what I was talking about. I don't need a smarta$% answer and some smith getting Pi#^ed off at me.... But you answered my question. You explained why I should go with your stock over the "mass produced" stock I was looking at. That is all I am asking. I want these smiths to tell me why I should go with their product and NOT do it myself. Don't blow smoke up my a#$ and tell me yours is just better than what I can do myself. Sell it to me!! Explain what processes you are using to justify me sending you my hard earned $$$ I consider myself fairly mechanically inclined. Am I a machinist?? No I'm not but I don't want to pay someone to do what I can do. I rather enjoy being a part of everything I do so i want to know what I should tackle and what I shouldn't.


To reference your car analogy, Can I build a Camero that will perform as well as a Lingenfelter vette?? You betcha!! Will it be as "pretty" probably not. Now this is the defining thing. Can I machine the motor??? No so I pay a machine shop to do it. Can I assemble the motor?? I can and have! Just as good as the machinist can. Sometimes even better simply do to the fact they are machinists not engine builders. Maybe they won't take the time I will in assembling and blue printing it. I don't want to pay a gunsmith 1000's of $$$ to simply assemble a rifle I want to know what they are doing that I am not qualified to do

I keep getting comments that seem to think I feel I can do it better than a gunsmith. I know for a fact that I cannot. All I am asking is, can I do what is needed to make a tack driver of a rifle if I have a smith do the important stuff? I can appreciate a clean fit and finish just like anyone else BUT the bottom line for me is accomplishing my goal of hitting what I am aiming at. I could give a rats *** if there is a gap between the bottom metal and the stock and I am for **** sure not going to pay 1000's of $$$ more for a rifle like that UNLESS it makes it a better shooter. I do want a nice looking rifle but not at a huge increase in cost if it doesn't benefit my shooting.

 

[dodgefreak8]

I think the guy had a valid question and no one should be too hostile. The car analogy was one of the best you can find a shade tree mechanic and save a ton but if you want something done by the guys with the reputation in the industry of consistently having customers that are giddy with their results you pay WAY more. Ask Chip Foose to build you a car and there is not going to be a discussion on the cost of parts or how soon your car will show up. There are details that you would never think of that come out of people who have the highest level of expertise and if you are not happy most of them are not happy and want to fix it. Besides $150 an hour for any type of mechanical work is not out of whack for any industry. If a guy spends 6 hours on your rifle that would be $900.

This is where it gets complicated for me lol. I would be much happier with a car that I built myself than one from Chip Foose. And in all reality he doesn't do anything that anyone else isn't capable of. He takes parts and puts them together with a fancy paint job on Most of his cars. He doesn't machine the engine or build it for that matter. He buys one or has someone else built one and puts it in the car. I would venture to say that any gunsmith is 10x's the craftsman that Chip Foose is. He does do a lot of designing when it comes to the wheels and things but those are parts you can buy . BUT I understand what you are trying to say Now in saying all that, I don't want my car to be a tack driver at 1000yrds so there are things that I need a professional to do. I hope that helps with what I am trying to understand

 

[J E Custom]

This is where it gets complicated for me lol. I would be much happier with a car that I built myself than one from Chip Foose. And in all reality he doesn't do anything that anyone else isn't capable of. He takes parts and puts them together with a fancy paint job on Most of his cars. He doesn't machine the engine or build it for that matter. He buys one or has someone else built one and puts it in the car. I would venture to say that any gunsmith is 10x's the craftsman that Chip Foose is. He does do a lot of designing when it comes to the wheels and things but those are parts you can buy . BUT I understand what you are trying to say Now in saying all that, I don't want my car to be a tack driver at 1000yrds so there are things that I need a professional to do. I hope that helps with what I am trying to understand

Ok Lets try this.

Each rifle is an individual just like each build.

A good smith will recognize the problems no matter how small and make the best choices for
that build in order to produce a quality product.

Being a good mechanic takes training being a master mechanic takes training and experance
plus attention to details, The same is true with Gun Smiths.

Someone that has been doing gun work for years and has the desire to make each build better
than the last is the guy that can give you the best chance of getting what you want and in
most cases exceed your expectations.

Most custom builders can guarantee sub 1/2 MOA rifles, But this doesn't meen that occasionally
they will build one that just won't do 1/2 MOA because of the barrel. The good ones will test it
and if it does not shoot they will make it good.

I can not tell you how to make all Remingtons or Winchesters shoot because they are all
different to some degree and require different things. There are basic rules for each type
of action and barrel, but they are just that "Basic" and that is what separates the groupies
from the rock stars.

At one time delivery of a custom rifle took 2+ years and $3,000+ dollars and they came
with a 1.5 MOA guarantee. now most come with a 1/2 MOA and less that 6 months delivery
at less cost. the only thing that makes the custom seem high is the cheep factory rifles
available now.

I don't know if that answered your question but I do know that you get what you pay for
and experance is part of the price.

J E CUSTOM

 

[dodgefreak8]

Understood thanks JE!

 

[ken snyder]

I publicly apologize for the undeserved rudeness of my plumber remark! There is not a good answer to your question. I do not know your capabilities or understanding. The do it yourself market is very large, and it is very rare to see a person not happy with their own work. You could end up with a piece of eye candy that shoots every bit as good as anything I can build. I'll bet that the bulk of the people on LRH are doing their own work with their pre-existing barreled and triggered action. The cost of building my own personal rifles with my own labor makes me sick too and for me there is absolutely no way to put less money into them. There is a very large difference in what makes a person happy with sporting rifles. As an example I have a Dangerous game rifle that I have over 11,000 dollars in parts and shop time and no scope, is it worth it, probably only to me. When we start talking actual custom builds instead of customized builds there is so much difference in prices simply because there is so much difference in cost, and when a person buys a true custom they have just bought a heck of a lot of spendy parts that must meet expectations. If you care enough about the sport to do as much as you can, there is a very good chance that you will end up in someones shop ordering a custom. Plan on that day with a savings account. It means that you really do want that rifle, its not a whim and yes you will be happy!

 

[dodgefreak8]

I am slowley coming to the realization of what you just said. I am more interested in function than form and like I stated above I really enjoy tinkering. I think I have decided to go with something in between having a smith completely build me a rifle and building the entire thing myself. Honestly because I will never have the kind of $$ needed saved up all at once. It seems like something always comes up and the money has to go else where. I am pretty sure I have found my gunsmith if he is wlling to work with me purchasing the parts slowly and sending him what I am uncomfortable doing. This thread has went many directions and I learned a BUNCH!! Everyone was pretty helpful even with my under whelming ability to try and eplain what I was asking!

Hopefully this old Turd chaser can show you just how meticulous we can be