Which would you choose?

[cajun]

Don't know where I've been, but never heard of one until now, myself.
I've had great results with accuracy and brass life in 7RM.
Maybe using the same brass in the same gun and only bumping shoulders helped me over the years??
I'm asking.

From what I can tell the issue is overblown and likely the result of sloppy chambers in factory rifles. I've loaded for several different belted mags in multiple calibers and never had an issue either.

 

[orkan]

Generally speaking, every cartridge that's ever been invented, works for most people.

It's when you start asking a lot of them, that the cream rises to the top.

All shooters are not equal, and what works for one, will most definitely not for the other. When a better option presents itself, you'll use it instead. Especially if you are continually reaching for higher plateaus.


-----------
Follow on Instagram
Subscribe on YouTube
Amazon Affiliate

 

[Axl]

It's one thing to already be invested in old technology (belted magnums) and continue it's use for financial reasons.

It's entirely another thing advocating that someone that is not already invested in it START getting invested in it.

To start with, to use a belted magnum properly in handloading, you must use a neil jones collet die if you expect continued use of the brass beyond just a few firings. Then there's the fact that a primary and secondary headspace is a pain in the butt to deal with, and has been known to create not only sizing issues but various other feeding/extraction/ejection issues over time with various platforms. The belt was never a desire, but rather a design necessity given the limitations of the time.

Literally any non-belted option would be a better choice. The 7 PRC is aimed squarely at this exact use case.

That said, the reasoning of "because that's what I want" is reason enough for anyone to shoot whatever they like. It's only when they start advocating what someone else should do, that faulty reasoning (if it's present) becomes a problem.

I still remember the first pronghorn I shot with a 7mm rem mag. Fixed 4x optic at nearly 600yds. Downright amazing cartridge that took a long time to eclipse.


-----------
Follow on Instagram
Subscribe on YouTube
Amazon Affiliate

While belted cartridges can pose some issues, saying "you must use a neil jones collet die if you expect continued use of the brass beyond just a few firings" is simply not true. I have been around many belted belted cartridges that worked till the primer pockets were loose, without ever using the Neil Jones die. It is a specialty tool that is needed in a small percentage of rifles.

People have been successfully reloading belted cartridges for decades and will continue to do so for many more.

 

[orkan]

I have been around many belted belted cartridges that worked till the primer pockets were loose, without ever using the Neil Jones die.

I can loosen a primer pocket with one firing. Correlation does not equal causation. Claiming the problem doesn't exist because you've not had it, presents a logical fallacy issue. Especially when those of us that have been instructors on firing lines in the industry for some period of time have been personally witnessing the issues for over a decade. Less so these days, due to the complete abandonment of belted magnums. (rightfully so)

Some people seem to think I'm sharing an opinion here. I'm not. I'm sharing a mechanical fact. It's a fact that a great many shooters have never encountered, for all kinds of reasons... but it is a fact none the less.

From the larry willis site:
Unlike non-belted cases, the belt prevents conventional full length dies from traveling far enough down the case. This limits the amount of resizing, and brass is plowed rearward. The brass builds up just above the belt at each reloading, and cases expand.

We can debate this all you like, but there's always a disconnect between those that haven't experienced something, and those that have. Those that haven't, will most often claim that the problem doesn't exist, no matter how factually and easily the problem can be explained or demonstrated. This is especially true if they are emotionally invested in the means, rather than the outcome. That emotional investment might be due to nostalgia or familiarity... but it's there none the less. Even I have a nostalgic feeling toward the 300 win mag.
The converse of that is the emotional attachment to the outcome. In this discipline, that means down range performance and a systematic elimination of variables in every place we can eliminate them. So... advocating for both a primary and secondary headspace, when time has taught us that only one is required, and we don't need the belt to hold the pressure, is arguing for mediocrity. This is evidenced by the complete absence of all belted cases from any apex in every single shooting discipline, with perhaps the singular exception of dangerous game cartridges. A situation where pure accuracy and precision are secondary, and raw horsepower are primary. The reliability and other concerns are handled by adhering to the one bullet-one barrel philosophy. Having talked to PH's about the belted magnum web expansion problem in the past, several of them said it would be unconscionable for them to NOT use the willis collet die, and the others very matter of fact said they abhor handloaded ammunition due to the reliability issues they've experienced from a great number of hunters in the past.

Take great care to read what I'm saying and infer the correct message. I am not saying the belted magnums are worthless. Yet I am saying they are inferior to the modern options. In most instances, with most use cases, this is not an opinion. It is a fact. This does not mean everyone that has a belted mag should throw it away. Quite the contrary. If people are happy, then continue being happy.

...and here is the critical part:

Their happiness does NOT give them permission to advocate for an eclipsed technology and sink OTHER people's money into poorer choices when they are not already invested in it. Not without publicly stated resistance from me, at the very least.

Last month I put roughly 1000 handloaded purposeful precision rifle rounds downrange. That was the least I've shot in any month this year due to it being deer season and I hunted almost every day of it. It would be good for people to remember that when I'm talking, often times I'm not talking to them. I'm talking to those people that also expect apex level performances with a busy firing schedule that aren't wanting to compromise on any one thing.

This doesn't mean I begrudge anyone clinging to the past. I will begrudge them trying to push the past on others however.

Despite my love for the 300 win mag, and the fact that it will always have a place in my heart... The 300 PRC has relegated it to the dust bin of history. The world just hasn't caught up to that fact yet. But it will.
A customers factory-ammo moose smasher:




-----------
Follow on Instagram
Subscribe on YouTube
Amazon Affiliate

 

[cajun]

And just because some people do have issues does not mean " you cant get more than a few reloads off a belted mag without using a specialty die" It's the same thing lol. Because some people are having issues with clickers in 7prc does that mean you cannot get more than a few reloads without a special die? If you browse the forums you see a lot of complaints. But like anything else the guys with issues bring it up. More so than guys who never have a problem.

 

[Phil Rizzo]

Guys we need to get out of Orkan's way here.
we know very little.
we have little relative experience.
He's not used to elementary students like us wasting his time.We likely don't fit the new wave criteria that sells these days, especially for clueless clowns that ask their builder what cartridge they "need".
How did we make it this far?

 

[orkan]

And just because some people do have issues does not mean " you cant get more than a few reloads off a belted mag without using a specialty die" It's the same thing lol. Because some people are having issues with clickers in 7prc does that mean you cannot get more than a few reloads without a special die? If you browse the forums you see a lot of complaints. But like anything else the guys with issues bring it up. More so than guys who never have a problem.

Be specific please.

What load are you running, and how many firings are we talking about?

I've seen this problem show up in as little as 4 firings. I've seen some guys go 8-9 before it shows up. Doesn't change the fact that if they shoot their rifles frequently, it shows up eventually.

Guys we need to get out of Orkan's way here.
we know very little.
we have little relative experience.
He's not used to elementary students like us wasting his time.We likely don't fit the new wave criteria that sells these days, especially for clueless clowns that ask their builder what cartridge they "need".
How did we make it this far?

That's uncalled for.

Do you really think trying to belittle the large amount of round count and experience I have is going to help your argument? Why do you feel it necessary to start in with the childish attacks? You feeling inferior and saying so, doesn't mean I'm trying to be superior or trying to make you feel inferior. That's a "you" problem. I'm talking about a very easily proven mechanical reality of belted magnums, and you're talking about me. One of us is off topic, and it isn't me. I hope you feel really good about yourself.

I find it ironic that you think the people asking their builder what to use are clueless. The people taking the advice of folks on the internet with no skin in the game are going to be far worse off. Making a decision from ignorance without soliciting the help of an expert is rarely a good idea. Not that all builders are experts, and many are far from it. Yet I wonder who you'd advise they listen to if not the guy they have chosen to be responsible for the project.


-----------
Follow on Instagram
Subscribe on YouTube
Amazon Affiliate

 

[ntsqd]

The odds of you convincing me of your perspective logarithmically diminishes with each further attempt. Some of us prefer to shoot something already existing than be a slave to Madison Ave's continuous marketing.

 

[cajun]

Well you still havent answered my question about the prc.

 

[Phil Rizzo]

Keep on with your Supreme attitude, and it will catch up with you. It may not have so far, "but it will…"
I love asking questions on this forum and sharing experiences, with shooters, builders and suppliers alike.
MOST are entirely enjoyable and helpful, thankfully.

Cajun, that 7PRC isn't the only PRC that has had issues.

 

[SSG Graybush]

Looking to pick up a good gun without going full custom. I'm going with the old faithful remington 7 mag.
I believe I've narrowed it down to two guns. A christensen arms mesa long range or remington sendero (preferably an older one, don't know if I trust the new rem arms company)
What would you go with, and why?

Thanks

The new Remington Alpha 1 in 7 mag comes with a 8 twist. I have a remage 7mag 8T, shooting a 180 gr vld-h at 2917 fps. Can't beat that imo for LR hunting under 1000 yards. Very good ballistics, and energy while keeping recoil tolerable.

 

[SSG Graybush]

It's one thing to already be invested in old technology (belted magnums) and continue it's use for financial reasons.

It's entirely another thing advocating that someone that is not already invested in it START getting invested in it.

To start with, to use a belted magnum properly in handloading, you must use a neil jones collet die if you expect continued use of the brass beyond just a few firings. Then there's the fact that a primary and secondary headspace is a pain in the butt to deal with, and has been known to create not only sizing issues but various other feeding/extraction/ejection issues over time with various platforms. The belt was never a desire, but rather a design necessity given the limitations of the time.

Literally any non-belted option would be a better choice. The 7 PRC is aimed squarely at this exact use case.

That said, the reasoning of "because that's what I want" is reason enough for anyone to shoot whatever they like. It's only when they start advocating what someone else should do, that faulty reasoning (if it's present) becomes a problem.

I still remember the first pronghorn I shot with a 7mm rem mag. Fixed 4x optic at nearly 600yds. Downright amazing cartridge that took a long time to eclipse.


-----------
Follow on Instagram
Subscribe on YouTube
Amazon Affiliate

Completely wrong on the belted mags, Set the headspace tight and forget about the belt and set sizing die up to just bump the shoulder 2 thou and you can shoot that brass 15x. I do with a regular non bushing Redding sizing dies with both 300 wm and 7mag. Never had a case separate, stuck, nothing. People set up their dies wrong, over work their brass and blame it on the belt.
Because I have a 7mag 8T I won't buy a 7prc, but it's a very good choice for any hunter. For the non reloader until there's more 7 prc ammo choices the 7mag imo would be a better choice as you have more options to find a ammo, and ammo your rifle likes.

 

[Phil Rizzo]

I shot 7RM for 25 yrs, and had spectacular results like many of you have.
I have a 7PRC and the performance is no different, of course.
Also shoot multiple Sherman's.
Im not against new cartridges or any others for that matter, to be clear.

I also shoot them year round, for the enjoyment. I'm thankful to have the places, equipment and opportunity, while we can still enjoy personal freedoms.

 

[cajun]

Completely wrong on the belted mags, Set the headspace tight and forget about the belt and set sizing die up to just bump the shoulder 2 thou and you can shoot that brass 15x. I do with a regular non bushing Redding sizing dies with both 300 wm and 7mag. Never had a case separate, stuck, nothing. People set up their dies wrong, over work their brass and blame it on the belt.
Because I have a 7mag 8T I won't buy a 7prc, but it's a very good choice for any hunter. For the non reloader until there's more 7 prc ammo choices the 7mag imo would be a better choice as you have more options to find a ammo, and ammo your rifle likes.

Same here. But also with 6.5 rem mag and 350 rem mag. So thats 4 belted mags.