The 143ELDX retains over 1600 in energy at 300 and the bullet construction is designed to have controlled expansion for deeper penetration. I wouldn't hesitate a moment to make a well placed shot on an Elk with that round.
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Which rifle?
- Thread starter snox801
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freddiej
Well-Known Member
Okay, I have not read everything here but I am going to be the lone guy that believes the 6.5 Creed is not meant for hunting anything bigger than deer. in my mind's eye it is just a worked over 260 Rem. It's good for deer out to 400 yards. nothing special. Elk I have taken with 270 win, 300 win, 300 RUM (painful), 338 RUM (even more painful), 338 win mag and 45-70. I have guided people on a friend's ranch up in north western Montana. the big round at the time was 7MM R/M. I had one rule that I personally enforced like my heritage dictated. No vital shots- only neck or head shots. if you violated this rule I would make you personally track the Elk alone for as long as it took. I accepted no excuses. I had tracked too many 7MM shot Elk for miles, past the ranch's boundaries and had to explain why I was on someone else's land.
I was the "new guy" so I got the people no one else wanted. I smiled when I saw their guns, their choice of cartridges, and their KISS approach to hunting. there was only a few places on the ranch where you could take a 1,000 yard shot, mostly it was limited to 600 yards at most. with the meadow, forest layout most of your shots were under 425 yards.
I got handed this guy with this gun that had character (scrapes, bruises, worn bluing, and an oiled stock). over lunch we discussed how far he was comfortable to shoot. he stated 1,000 yards was his limit. I asked him for his setup/rig he was shooting. then we went to the range.. sure enough this guy was a really good shot, the farther he shot the better he got. I was confident in him. if this has been one of the 7MM people I would never have felt confident. most of the 7MM guys I test that year could not make a 250 yard shot to save their lives. This guy got a 500 yard shot the second day out and planted the elk with a high neck shot. for the next 6 years I guided him every year for Elk and Deer. okay two bear hunts as well.
the next week I got handed 4 guys that came up as a team. all had identical setups, I told them all they had to prove they could shoot them. they all proved it. they all adhered to the neck/head shot and all walked away with great bulls.
what do all 5 of these people have in common.. the caliber. 264 Win Mag. I have shot the creed, the 260 rem, 6.5 gren, and a handful of other 6.5 cartridges.. I have to admit I am completely underwhelmed by most every 6.5 chambering I have ever shot. with the exception of 6.5X57 AI, 6.5-06, 264 W/M. I have not shot the 6.5-7MM WSM yet or the 6.5 SAUM. let's face it I am not a huge 6.5 fan. never have been. so take my evaluation for what it's worth.
I like the 270 and wish the 7MM R/M had been a 270 R/M. maybe we would have better slugs for the 270 these days.
freddiej
Well-Known Member
Okay, I have not read everything here but I am going to be the lone guy that believes the 6.5 Creed is not meant for hunting anything bigger than deer. in my mind's eye it is just a worked over 260 Rem. It's good for deer out to 400 yards. nothing special. Elk I have taken with 270 win, 300 win, 300 RUM (painful), 338 RUM (even more painful), 338 win mag and 45-70. I have guided people on a friend's ranch up in north western Montana. the big round at the time was 7MM R/M. I had one rule that I personally enforced like my heritage dictated. No vital shots- only neck or head shots. if you violated this rule I would make you personally track the Elk alone for as long as it took. I accepted no excuses. I had tracked too many 7MM shot Elk for miles, past the ranch's boundaries and had to explain why I was on someone else's land.
I was the "new guy" so I got the people no one else wanted. I smiled when I saw their guns, their choice of cartridges, and their KISS approach to hunting. there was only a few places on the ranch where you could take a 1,000 yard shot, mostly it was limited to 600 yards at most. with the meadow, forest layout most of your shots were under 425 yards.
I got handed this guy with this gun that had character (scrapes, bruises, worn bluing, and an oiled stock). over lunch we discussed how far he was comfortable to shoot. he stated 1,000 yards was his limit. I asked him for his setup/rig he was shooting. then we went to the range.. sure enough this guy was a really good shot, the farther he shot the better he got. I was confident in him. if this has been one of the 7MM people I would never have felt confident. most of the 7MM guys I test that year could not make a 250 yard shot to save their lives. This guy got a 500 yard shot the second day out and planted the elk with a high neck shot. for the next 6 years I guided him every year for Elk and Deer. okay two bear hunts as well.
the next week I got handed 4 guys that came up as a team. all had identical setups, I told them all they had to prove they could shoot them. they all proved it. they all adhered to the neck/head shot and all walked away with great bulls.
what do all 5 of these people have in common.. the caliber. 264 Win Mag. I have shot the creed, the 260 rem, 6.5 gren, and a handful of other 6.5 cartridges.. I have to admit I am completely underwhelmed by most every 6.5 chambering I have ever shot. with the exception of 6.5X57 AI, 6.5-06, 264 W/M. I have not shot the 6.5-7MM WSM yet or the 6.5 SAUM. let's face it I am not a huge 6.5 fan. never have been. so take my evaluation for what it's worth.
I like the 270 and wish the 7MM R/M had been a 270 R/M. maybe we would have better slugs for the 270 these days.
hera200
Active Member
BrentM
Well-Known Member
People should spend more time studying terminal ballistics. Snox801, do yourself a favor and look at some of the independent ballistics studies and dive into sectional density performance. Science trumps all the opinions about what they prefer. It's hard to imagine anyone thinking .006 bullet diameter difference amounts to anything let alone the ignoring the affects that BC has regarding retaining velocity at range but it happens. I'm starting to think that people believe the more recoil a rifle produces the better the terminal performance.
hera200
Active Member
FREDDIE, How nice to hear someone with real experience say what I have been thinking for along while now while reading and enjoying this site so very much. Speaking from central Canada with many years of hunting everything from groundhogs to 5 to 600 pound black bear I don't feel there is such a thing as being ' over-gunned '. When watching something as small as a whitetail eat 308 and shotgun slugs and go scampering off like nothing had happened and then having to track endlessly I soon came to the conclusion that animals we hunt are much tougher than most people want to admit. I would NEVER encourage someone to hunt with any rifle smaller than WHAT THEY CAN HANDLE WELL. Yes I have heard all about destroying meat with large magnums but my 338 just BEHIND the shoulder does not really destroy much that I was going to eat anyway. But there is no more tracking. The quick kill is desirable in more ways than one. Sure bullet placement is extremely important as well as bullet type but it is SOMEWHAT less so with the larger caliber and higher velocities. And yes, I have read at long length that only blood loss is what kills and the animal does not know how big the hole in him is. I can only speak from personal experience when I say that anything shot with my 338 does not have any time to stop and think about what just happened --he is on his way to his next life because this one is over. Just watch a moose stand broadside while 180 grain 308 rounds are impacting the heart-lung area while looking like he is enjoying his morning walk and you start to become a believer. Sure he is dead and just does not know it yet but he is also still capable of making it into the nearby swamp so its more than just nasty to get him home. I know I could shoot AT the shoulder and anchor the animal hopefully on the spot but that is when a lot of meat loss occurs. And don't get me started on large black bears and what they can handle--they are what got me started on going to a magnum caliber many years ago. I realized I was just lucky that they usually head the other way when shot and I am including when the top of the heart was decimated by a 270. I never had this happen again after going to the 338. We all have to go with our own experience in life and sometimes we have to speak up even if it tends to go against the grain. That is what I think Freddie did and I just thought I would add a little to his point.....BUD
BrentM
Well-Known Member
Everyone has their opinion and experience. I guided and outfitted for close to 30 years and have seen it all, just don't pontificate about it much. I have seen old timers take everything we had to offer, bear, elk, moose, and deer with a lever action 30-30 and I have seen guys make horrid shots with a 338 lapau and 7 STW. I don't have a clue how many animals I've seen hit the dirt, a lot, and every single animal hit correctly has been dead within steps. I've never given a crap about the overall weapon choice of my hunters (within reason) but I pay close attention to their abilities and ethics. In the end I have zero concerns about a guy packing a creedmoor who knows how to use it. We've killed a pile of elk with them, have not lost a single animal. Yes I will agree that bigger and faster does typically create more shock with the correct bullet choice.
snox801
Well-Known Member
I agree Brent, the numbers matter kinda like the 270 is ok but not a creed. Or a 7mm-08 is great but not the creed.
Dry similar as to what to use for hogs. Shot placement is above all else.
Dry similar as to what to use for hogs. Shot placement is above all else.
freddiej
Well-Known Member
Brent, If I was to tell you what I think of the 7MM R/M mindset I would never be allowed to post on here ever again. okay let me refine that statement, If I was to tell you what I think of the 7mm R/M shooters mindset I have met while guiding I would never be allowed to post here ever again. when people believe that you must have a 7MM R/M to kill Elk and only the 7MM slugs can kill Elk; how do you counter that with logic? what I think about vitals shots should be aparent. I hate them and do not believe in them. I have done too much tracking of deer, Elk, Bear from vitals shots and more specifically 7MM R/M shooters. My 338 Win Mag has taken many (too many to count) Elk after a 7 MM slug hit them poorly or a vitals shot. this goes for my 270 Winchester as well. I am not raging against the cartridge, which I truly hate the 7MM R/M there is no secret about it. I truly hate the mentality of the 7MM R/M shooters. they are nearly a cult. they normally can't shoot over 150 yards without missing a 4'X4' target. they can't handle the recoil and flinch every shot and miss everything over 125 yards. then they have the arrogance to look at any one of my rifles and scoff at the calibers. the myriad of things said about 338 win mag (too old, too much recoil, and the alike), to my 270 win (too old, not enough power, only can bring down coyotes where I come from), to my 45-70 (too old, ancient, too slow, to big, too much recoil, too this, not enough of that). once I saw this old timer come to the ranch with a well seasoned 7MM R/M and I took only 3 seconds to volunteer to guide him. I asked how far he was comfortable, he locked eyes and said, "sunny, I can take Elk at 500 yards without a second thought." I smiled and took him to the range and told him the orange target is 540 yards. let one fly. the slug hit 1" low dead center. that told me the old man was good with his gun. I guided him to a 250 yard shot and he turned it down. the next one was somewhere about 130 yards, he liked the bull much better. it took him only a few seconds to make the bull fall. He severed the spine with a 139 grain SST. the one and only 7MM shooter than I got along with. he just looked at my 270 and smiled after our hunt he asked me how comfortable I was with my 270? I told him just about as comfortable as you with your 7MM. at the lodge we drank a little, and laughed at the other hunters walking in with miles of tracking on them. If you are going to hunt with something at least know how to use the gun and know your capabilities. No one cartridge, slug, or diameter is a panacea. I have seen guys shoot Elk with 257 Rob AI, 25-06, 257 Weatherby, 7X57, 30-06, 300 W/M, 264 W/M, 243 winchester, 32 W/S, 30-30, 6.5X57, 338 W/M, 284 W/M, 270 Weatherby, 270 Win, and some others. I have never in my life seen so many shooters as a group loose Elk and Deer due to arrogance that their guns would make up for their shortcomings as a shooter as with the 7MM R/M cult. I can not figure it out. nearly every 7MM R/M shooter I have ever guided has had me tracking blood for 1.5 miles or more. They lied about how good of a shot they were, were so arrogant they believed their gun would make up for range time, and they could kill an Elk with a shot that may or may not hit something that would immediately stop the animal. I value honesty, I value being up front about abilities, and I absolutely value people that take my advice in the field. if that makes me unlikable.. so be it.
BrentM
Well-Known Member
Man that was a book. Yeah we had a 55 gallons drum with a paper plate on it down the landing strip. It was 250 yards. I could count on one hand the amount of people who could actually hit it. Most of the time I could get my clients inside 150 so it didn't seem to matter what they used. I do find it interesting the dislike for the 7. I've have always like the .284 bullet choices.
Lance clay
Member
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2013
- Messages
- 9
Use what he shoots best. European countries use the 6.5x55 for moose and have over 50 years. The Creed with 140 and the right placement will work. Yes, bigger might be better but a dead elk won't tell the difference.
hunter0528
Well-Known Member
My rifle is a Blaser R8 in 300 Win and 30/06. I took the elk you see with the 300 Win. Basicly 1 shot with a follow up to be sure (First was though the Lungs second Heart) dropped within 50 feet of the first shot.
If he is using the ELD make sure it is the X not the M (Match)
If he is using the ELD make sure it is the X not the M (Match)
Country Bumpkin
Well-Known Member
I'm a
