Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
Is the bullet listed on the Berger websites as ????????
30 cal 175 Grain Match Target BT Long Range #30420
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Whats the most stable transonic bullet?
- Thread starter Topshot
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Is the bullet listed on the Berger websites as ????????
30 cal 175 Grain Match Target BT Long Range #30420
Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
I ordered a box of these bullets and will start load development soon.
That bullet was designed, tested and put into production in the 1920's for long range machine gun use. Made available to civilians through the DCM for competition, it proved a very accurate long range bullet. In the 1930's tests were made with the .30-06 match ammo using it and the arsenal doing it learned that bullets made without the crimping groove shot more accurate; so no more crimping groove and crimped case mouths for the .30-06. It was made up through the 1980's.
No way was the original set of jacket forming dies used in the coin, cup, trim, core and final-form stages making those bullets used for 60+ years. Several hundred sets of dies were probably made. And its boattail was virtually identical to Sierra Bullets' 190 grain and heavier HPMK's. It's BC was equal to Sierra's original 180-gr. FMJBT match bullet and almost up to what their 190 HPMK bullet has.
The reason the M118 round with the old 173-gr. FMJBT bullet was replaced with bullets using Sierra's 175-gr. HPMK bullet was the bore and groove diameters of the M14's 22-inch barrels shooting them. Interesting note is that when Lake City Arsenal came out with the M852 match round with a Sierra 168 in it, the same subsonic problems happened with M14's 22 inch barrels. Near worn out or those with larger bore and groove diameters didn't shoot either bullet fast enough to keep it super sonic through 1000 yards. In Winchester Model 70 .308 Win. target rifles with their 26-inch barrels, even near worn out ones, shot either bullet fast enough to stay supersonic through 1000 yards.
That 173-gr. FMJBT bullet in M72 .30-06 match ammo stayed well above the transonic point well past 1000 yards.
No fast-flying, long boattail bullet maintains accuracy in transonic flight. The reason the old military 173 FMJBT machine gun bullets weren't stable past their transonic point was less than 1000 yards was they weren't shot fast enough for their ballistic coefficient of their aerodynamic shape.
Sierra Bullets well knows what happens when a small change to a bullet's shape causes problems. Case in point is their 180-gr. HPMK bullet used in competitioin. The US Army Active and Reserve Rifle Teams were champions at long range with their M14NM's shooting M118 match ammo whose 173 bullet was replaced with a Sierra 180 HPMK. Winning matches and setting records was the norm with it. Then Sierra changed the boattail to a shorter one with the same shape as their 168 HPMK. The new "short-tailed" 180 HPMK had less BC and no longer shot accurate past 900 yards in 22 inch barrels. The Army Teams convinced Sierra to retool and make them 180 HPMK's with the original "long-tailed" design with a longer boattail bullet. They continued to do well with it but that bullet was never again sold commercially. Only the short-tail version was available at retail.
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Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
I went out today and tested three loads of Varget in Winchester cases against my normal load of 175 SMKs and Varget in Win cases.
I got three consecutive 5 shot groups slightly under 0.5 MOA with the Berger 175 OTMs. There was a little wind that hurt my group size. I seldom shoot groups less than 0.3 so I was happy with the results. The aim point is the upper right corner of the tape. Deer season in Maryland starts a week from Saturday so I may get to try them out on a deer.
I got three consecutive 5 shot groups slightly under 0.5 MOA with the Berger 175 OTMs. There was a little wind that hurt my group size. I seldom shoot groups less than 0.3 so I was happy with the results. The aim point is the upper right corner of the tape. Deer season in Maryland starts a week from Saturday so I may get to try them out on a deer.
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FAL Shot
Well-Known Member
Airgunners who operate through the transonic region have long used round ball fired through a smoothbore barrel.
H&N makes a ball round for that application called Rundkugeln (literal translation: "round bullet").
Round is round from any angle and any shock waves affecting the ball would affect it equally no matter what the orientation.
Tests have shown that round ball fired from a smoothbore airgun have impacted with the bright circle imparted by the barrel oriented axially with the line of travel. In other words, it was not tumbling or yawing in flight.
H&N makes a ball round for that application called Rundkugeln (literal translation: "round bullet").
Round is round from any angle and any shock waves affecting the ball would affect it equally no matter what the orientation.
Tests have shown that round ball fired from a smoothbore airgun have impacted with the bright circle imparted by the barrel oriented axially with the line of travel. In other words, it was not tumbling or yawing in flight.
LouBoyd
Well-Known Member
The alternative to shooting transonic is to use higher BC bullets, more case capacity, and long barrels.
The advantages are:
lower wind deflection
flatter trajectory
more terminal energy
better accuracy even if the transonic bullet remains stable.
I can't think of any target distant enough and large enough where shooting transonic would offer an advantage for hunting. There may be some military applications.
The advantages are:
lower wind deflection
flatter trajectory
more terminal energy
better accuracy even if the transonic bullet remains stable.
I can't think of any target distant enough and large enough where shooting transonic would offer an advantage for hunting. There may be some military applications.
I agree with all except the last one.
Higher BC bullets does not mean you'll get better accuracy. Bullet accuracy's determined by two or three things; how uniform its weight and shape is and how well balanced they are. If all leave the muzzle at the same speed and muzzle axis angle and there's no external forces applied to them, they'll all go in the same hole.
rscott5028
Well-Known Member
True. But, external forces exist. So unless it's dead calm, high bc will win out over low bc at long range with all else equal. e.g. bullet uniformity/balance, shooter ability.
Also as LouBoyd stated, the low bc bullet will become transonic sooner than the high bc bullet (assuming equal mv). Plus, better transonic stability isn't going to improve accuracy relative to a bullet that doesn't become transonic.
So, bc rules for LRH. Nonetheless it's fair to ask, what if you could have your cake and eat it too?
-- richard
joe0121
Well-Known Member
Ill be interested as well. I'm building a short barrel .308. Key is getting the bullets to stabilize out of the shorter tube.
joe0121
Well-Known Member
You shooter app for the Droid is Amazing. i was going to write an App as part of my graduation project for school but you did everything I wanted. You need to get your app on the kindle. Thanks for all the work you do so guys like me don't have to ware out ten barrel doing trial and error.
It's easy. Use a fast twist.
joe0121
Well-Known Member
I was thinking 1/10????
LouBoyd
Well-Known Member
If all bullets left at the same speed and there were no external forces appled to them shooting competition would be very boring.
I was only talking about supersonic VLDs versus transonic non VLDs at long range. I suppose there are cases where a transonic non VLDs could have lower time of flight giving less vertical stringing and lower lag time giving less wind deflection. It would have to have a higher muzzle velocity.
Do you ever choose to shoot bullets which will be transonic at the target?
