What .308 rifle for $1600?

[Creedmoor shooter]

I disliked them long ago when I handled them on a daily basis when I sold guns... Now I hate and despise them because of how annoying the supporters are, and how they talk down to you and your rifle choice, and say everything else is crap.

Same reason I hate the .338 Lapua, and the 6.5 Creedmoor. They might be great calibers, but the supporters have beat it into the dirt, and I'm overly annoyed with hearing about it. I'll deliberately own other similar calibers (but NOT those 2), simply because I don't want to be a hypocrite. I know they are good calibers, but they are NOT the end-all, be-all of rifle calibers.

I feel the same way about the "AI" supporters.

 

[MudRunner2005]

I feel the same way about the "AI" supporters.

I don't see how... Ackley Improving IS improving a case design...Not reinventing the wheel, like the Creedmoor. It is just a slightly smaller version of a .260 AI. Why? Just because everyone wants to feel special, so they create a slightly shorter .260 AI, and give it a whole new name... That's not improving, if anything, that's paralleling, and slightly down-grading, since it is still a little bit slower than the .260 AI.

The .260 vs 6.5 Creedmoor is basically the SAUM vs WSM debacle all over again. They're basically the same friggin thing, but Remington wanted in on the action, so they de-invented the wheel and made the SAUM calibers, after Winchester's sales boomed off the charts with the WSM calibers. Remington just copied Winchester, but it was a futile effort...The WSM's prevailed. Just like the .260 and .260 AI will, once the 6.5 Creed is on its last leg, other than for a select few niche' markets and a few BR shooters who are too stubborn to move on.

 

[Creedmoor shooter]

I don't see how... Ackley Improving IS improving a case design...Not reinventing the wheel, like the Creedmoor. It is just a slightly smaller version of a .260 AI. Why? Just because everyone wants to feel special, so they create a slightly shorter .260 AI, and give it a whole new name... That's not improving, if anything, that's paralleling, and slightly down-grading, since it is still a little bit slower than the .260 AI.

The .260 vs 6.5 Creedmoor is basically the SAUM vs WSM debacle all over again. They're basically the same friggin thing, but Remington wanted in on the action, so they de-invented the wheel and made the SAUM calibers, after Winchester's sales boomed off the charts with the WSM calibers. Remington just copied Winchester, but it was a futile effort...The WSM's prevailed. Just like the .260 and .260 AI will, once the 6.5 Creed is on its last leg, other than for a select few niche' markets and a few BR shooters who are too stubborn to move on.

I didnt say it wasnt improving. If i wanted more out of a round then Id just go the next size up. Just seems simpler that way to me. The Creedmoor is going no where anytime soon, and neither is the 260. If anything the Creed is growing in popularity, more companies are starting to make rifles, ammo, brass etc. Imo, I think the Creed will win out over time. I just cant stand it when people hate on supposed Creedmoor supporters or savage supporters. You are really no better than Creedmoor supporters or Savage supporters by always talking up remington and the 260 or 260 ai. Im not saying they aren't good rifles or good rounds. Everyone has different opinions and tastes, and you need variety to satisfy those different tastes. The Creedmoor or anything else for that matter just offers variety.

 

[MudRunner2005]

I didnt say it wasnt improving. If i wanted more out of a round then Id just go the next size up. Just seems simpler that way to me. The Creedmoor is going no where anytime soon, and neither is the 260. If anything the Creed is growing in popularity, more companies are starting to make rifles, ammo, brass etc. Imo, I think the Creed will win out over time. I just cant stand it when people hate on supposed Creedmoor supporters or savage supporters. You are really no better than Creedmoor supporters or Savage supporters by always talking up remington and the 260 or 260 ai. Im not saying they aren't good rifles or good rounds. Everyone has different opinions and tastes, and you need variety to satisfy those different tastes. The Creedmoor or anything else for that matter just offers variety.

I may be no better than, but I never said I was, either... I have openly admitted my bias on here numerous times, where others choose to show theirs in name calling and puffery. There's no need for this debate to get personal, I do find it funny when people take things personal, when nothing was directed at anyone in particular. Why can't we have a civil debate without it turning into a mud-slinging contest? Or a who's no better than who contest...

I didn't say the Creed was a bad caliber, I just said it was a redundant one. We've had the .260 for 20 years (and many more before that, as the 6.5-08 A-Square), there was no need to reinvent the wheel, since we have this new 6.5 boom going on. But hey, whatever makes the world go round. Buy what you like, it's not my money.

 

[Creedmoor shooter]

I may be no better than, but I never said I was, either... I have openly admitted my bias on here numerous times, where others choose to show theirs in name calling and puffery. There's no need for this debate to get personal, I do find it funny when people take things personal, when nothing was directed at anyone in particular. Why can't we have a civil debate without it turning into a mud-slinging contest? Or a who's no better than who contest...

I didn't say the Creed was a bad caliber, I just said it was a redundant one. We've had the .260 for 20 years (and many more before that, as the 6.5-08 A-Square), there was no need to reinvent the wheel, since we have this new 6.5 boom going on. But hey, whatever makes the world go round. Buy what you like, it's not my money.

My apologies didnt mean to make it personal or offend anyone. I did over step my bounds. Im just merely stateing my thoughts, but hey what do i know.

 

[MudRunner2005]

My apologies didnt mean to make it personal or offend anyone. I did over step my bounds. Im just merely stateing my thoughts, but hey what do i know.

You misunderstood. I'm not offended at all. I was just saying that, before anyone else jumped in here all butthurt and ****y. I was just saying that I hope this can become a good civil and intelectual debate, and not some turd-flinging contest. LOL

 

[Creedmoor shooter]

You misunderstood. I'm not offended at all. I was just saying that, before anyone else jumped in here all butthurt and ****y. I was just saying that I hope this can become a good civil and intelectual debate, and not some turd-flinging contest. LOL

Lol I here ya there!

 

[Jud96]

Good job boys! Way to play nice hahaha!

 

[bigngreen]

I have owned and like the Savage FCP. It is a nice shooter and well configured for F Class competition. I think your assessment and comparison of it compared to the 5R is overstated concerning the barrel. The 11.25 twist 5R barrel, can effectively handle modern bullet designs. Certainly up to 210gr. My experience in terms of pure precision between the two do not support that Savage holds any edge over the Milspec concerning barrel configuration.IMO.

In my playing with them and setting them up I have not seen stable long range (1000+) precision from the 11.25 twist with thee best bullets, they'll do well but not what we see from the 10 or even the 9.5 twist rate 308's once we start pushing them to there full potential.
If a guy looks at Rem twist rates you'll find the newer model designs are coming in a 1-10, the older the design the slower the twist rate it seems, they unfortunately come in platforms I'd pull the stock on, then drop a trigger in and lengthen the mag box so for the money I just can't justify a marginal configuration when there a better out there when I put my money down. I do love a Rem short action though because I get paid to fix them but I don't like working on my own guns so I put my personal money into the best odds for each cal. I like the short action Savages don't like the long actions except for WSM's. All my long action goodies are Rems or customs, so not picking on any one brand as I have equal dislikes for most all of them it just depends on what I'm working with.

 

[lewwetzel]

I'd look at a semi-custom from either Red Hawk rifles (Remington 700) or E.R. Shaw (Savage); a Remington 5R might be good, too. With any of those, you'd still have a chunk left to put towards a good scope. Never owned any of these, just considering the Red Hawk or Shaw as my next rifle(s)..

 

[Greyfox]

In my playing with them and setting them up I have not seen stable long range (1000+) precision from the 11.25 twist with thee best bullets, they'll do well but not what we see from the 10 or even the 9.5 twist rate 308's once we start pushing them to there full potential.
If a guy looks at Rem twist rates you'll find the newer model designs are coming in a 1-10, the older the design the slower the twist rate it seems, they unfortunately come in platforms I'd pull the stock on, then drop a trigger in and lengthen the mag box so for the money I just can't justify a marginal configuration when there a better out there when I put my money down. I do love a Rem short action though because I get paid to fix them but I don't like working on my own guns so I put my personal money into the best odds for each cal. I like the short action Savages don't like the long actions except for WSM's. All my long action goodies are Rems or customs, so not picking on any one brand as I have equal dislikes for most all of them it just depends on what I'm working with.

I guess it boils down to what the "three best bullets" are and I very well could be missing out on a better solution. I was competitive with either a 10 or 11.25 twist and 210 Berger 210VLD's, and 175 SMK's out at 1000 yards. Frankly, I found that for 1000 yard work I came to the realization that there were far better options and when trying to optimize the 308 much past 800 yards I felt like I was trying to turn a sows ear into a purse. I have since, moved on to better options. Having said that, I always have a warm spot for the 308 and will continue to use it for midrange work.

 

[FEENIX]

 

[Jud96]

I guess it boils down to what the "three best bullets" are and I very well could be missing out on a better solution. I was competitive with either a 10 or 11.25 twist and 210 Berger 210VLD's, and 175 SMK's out at 1000 yards. Frankly, I found that for 1000 yard work I came to the realization that there were far better options and when trying to optimize the 308 much past 800 yards I felt like I was trying to turn a sows ear into a purse. I have since, moved on to better options. Having said that, I always have a warm spot for the 308 and will continue to use it for midrange work.

I agree about the .308 past 800 yards. We don't shoot anything in them besides 168s. I feel like anything heavier is too much for it, like pulling a 30ft 5th wheel with a half ton pickup, yeah it'll do it but there are better platforms out there to do the job. If I want to shoot 210s or 208s then bump up to a larger case like one of the .300 Magnums or a .300 Sherman, at the minimum, for optimum performance. This is just my opinion so don't bash me or talk crap about it.

 

[bigngreen]

I agree about the .308 past 800 yards. We don't shoot anything in them besides 168s. I feel like anything heavier is too much for it, like pulling a 30ft 5th wheel with a half ton pickup, yeah it'll do it but there are better platforms out there to do the job. If I want to shoot 210s or 208s then bump up to a larger case like one of the .300 Magnums or a .300 Sherman, at the minimum, for optimum performance. This is just my opinion so don't bash me or talk crap about it.

A couple years ago I would have completely agreed with you but a 215 Berger in a 308 set up properly is quite frankly amazing, I'm beating the 168 Berger on windage to the tune of 2 MOA at 1000 yards, I'm running right with where I end up with a 6.5x284 with 140 Bergers.
Don't think about the weight look at the BC, I'm pushing the 215 with extreme accuracy out to 1535 yards and I'm not going sub sonic for another 100ish yards, THAT is what excites me about a 308!