So having said that, Would it be more accurate to sort by MV on fired case, i.e. cull the ones with high ES? I realize that would be extremely tedious.
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Weight sorting brass
- Thread starter elk wallow
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J E Custom
Well-Known Member
This is an expensive way to sort your brass and ends up no better than weight sorting.
There is some prep required before weight sorting to make it worth your while and as accurate in volume as any other method I have tried. you have to full size, (To get the outside dimension the same) then you need to trim all the cases so they all clean up and are the exact same length. (I normally turn all the case necks to the same thickness also) with proper prep the outside of the cases should be identical and therefore the weight if they are the same wall thickness/volume.
There may be a difference in the extractor depth that could make the weight vary a slight amount but if you don't mix the batches this is normally not an issue.
Which ever method you use the ESs are more important in my opinion for longer shots and Is my number 1 priority when prepping brass for extreme accuracy at long distances.
Just like my rifles, I want the ammo to out shoot me at all times.
Just my opinion
J E CUSTOM
So do you weigh H2O or use some other method? I find water hard to work with to be accurate enough to make me believe I am getting a REAL result. Do you add anything for surface tension?
When you say batches, do you mean lots? Do you uniform primer pockets before or after weighing?
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
Weighing brass is a shortcut over measuring H20 capacity.
The difference is significant.
I could smash one of your cases, and while it still weighs the same it's capacity has changed. Right?
Where someone truly seeks matching H20 capacities, they measure and make it so.
Simple as that.
I actually do this, and the first thing I need to be declare about it is that you will NEVER match H20 capacities with new brass, nor while heavily FL sizing cases.
Anyone who matches H20 capacities knows this.
Capacities have to be matched with cases at their most stable form, which is fully fire formed, -without sizing. Then, once matched, you can go to your sizing plan, which will degrade the match a little, or a lot(depending on your plan).
I'm sure you can search this site for plenty of info on matching H20 capacities.
On weighing, and FL sizing, and things to consider about that:
Let's say you choose to shoot a 30-06, in a typical SAAMI chamber, and everyone tells you to create rat turds in a violin case for ammo.. So you're heavily FL sizing away, which leads to trimming brass away. Your cases spring back all kinds of ways, and you also get loosening primer pockets(from big clearances), causing routine brass replacement.
What do you, with your own reasoning, think this does for case weight matching, or for H20 capacity matching efforts? Think about it.
While weighing brass is easy(and for the sake of being easy), it won't help you..
The difference is significant.
I could smash one of your cases, and while it still weighs the same it's capacity has changed. Right?
Where someone truly seeks matching H20 capacities, they measure and make it so.
Simple as that.
I actually do this, and the first thing I need to be declare about it is that you will NEVER match H20 capacities with new brass, nor while heavily FL sizing cases.
Anyone who matches H20 capacities knows this.
Capacities have to be matched with cases at their most stable form, which is fully fire formed, -without sizing. Then, once matched, you can go to your sizing plan, which will degrade the match a little, or a lot(depending on your plan).
I'm sure you can search this site for plenty of info on matching H20 capacities.
On weighing, and FL sizing, and things to consider about that:
Let's say you choose to shoot a 30-06, in a typical SAAMI chamber, and everyone tells you to create rat turds in a violin case for ammo.. So you're heavily FL sizing away, which leads to trimming brass away. Your cases spring back all kinds of ways, and you also get loosening primer pockets(from big clearances), causing routine brass replacement.
What do you, with your own reasoning, think this does for case weight matching, or for H20 capacity matching efforts? Think about it.
While weighing brass is easy(and for the sake of being easy), it won't help you..
MagnumManiac
Well-Known Member
As J E said, the cases must be uniform, this means that ALL prep is done prior to measuring the capacity or weight sorting. I have tried measuring capacity with once fired, and partial FL sized/trimmed, and the partial FL sized and trimmed brass gave the best results.
I use isopropal alcohol/water mixed at 50:50 to measure actual case volume.
I have moved away from weight sorting, I never found a good correlation to weight and internal capacity, some cases that were heavier actually had the same capacity as lighter cases, and the opposite was also true. I have had cases that were 5 grains outside the mean, and measured exactly the same in internal capacity. Heavier or lighter made no difference. I have seen many a case with eccentric cut extraction grooves, this alters the weight quite a bit, over 1 grain in most instances, which is outside of my mean weight of .5gr variance.
I keep my capacity to +/- 1/10 of a CC.
If you think it helps, try using a burrette, it measures in CC's and is more accurate than measuring in grains of a liquid, whether it's pure water or not. You must remember, that fired cases have residue in them, even after tumbling, this can alter the measurement, either the weight or the CC's.
It is tedious measuring, sorting and batching with a Burrette, I do it once and once only, as I know those cases shouldn't change much over their useful life.
I rarely do more than 50 cases, unless I get large swings, then a larger batch may be needed to get my comp/match brass.
Having the capacity almost the same doesn't improve accuracy that I can see on target, but, it definitely removes flyers from the group, even at 1000yrds in a highly tuned rifle.
Hope this helps.
gun)
I use isopropal alcohol/water mixed at 50:50 to measure actual case volume.
I have moved away from weight sorting, I never found a good correlation to weight and internal capacity, some cases that were heavier actually had the same capacity as lighter cases, and the opposite was also true. I have had cases that were 5 grains outside the mean, and measured exactly the same in internal capacity. Heavier or lighter made no difference. I have seen many a case with eccentric cut extraction grooves, this alters the weight quite a bit, over 1 grain in most instances, which is outside of my mean weight of .5gr variance.
I keep my capacity to +/- 1/10 of a CC.
If you think it helps, try using a burrette, it measures in CC's and is more accurate than measuring in grains of a liquid, whether it's pure water or not. You must remember, that fired cases have residue in them, even after tumbling, this can alter the measurement, either the weight or the CC's.
It is tedious measuring, sorting and batching with a Burrette, I do it once and once only, as I know those cases shouldn't change much over their useful life.
I rarely do more than 50 cases, unless I get large swings, then a larger batch may be needed to get my comp/match brass.
Having the capacity almost the same doesn't improve accuracy that I can see on target, but, it definitely removes flyers from the group, even at 1000yrds in a highly tuned rifle.
Hope this helps.
gun)
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
The OP ask about weight sorting and we got of track a little with all the different methods we use/prefer so I will post to clear some things up for him.
I have tried every method known to man and settled on the weight method after many accuracy test. what I found was that any form of case volume sorting was beneficial, so I highly recommend doing it if you want to load good ammo.
As many have said, don't worry about it, And for many years I didn't. Then along came long range hunting and that was a game changer. Making a poor shoot on paper is one thing, but wounding and animal is another so I set out to see if I could improve my ammo for the long shots.
I found that starting with new brass was the best in the long run. I prep all of my brass while it is new (The prep is to get all of it the same physically on the out side and in the flash hole). It the brass is physically the same on the outside and weighs the same, (same amount of brass in the cases) The volume is very close to the same.
I prefer the volume method after prepping and tried all types of media and found that using the
Burette method using a liquid (I tried different powders and found none desirable including ball powders) The liquid also had its problems and a wetting agent had to be used to break the surface tension in order to get good consistent volumes. This required special chemicals and was slow and messy (No problem for me) I had a good method and good equipment so I felt confident it was the best.
With time and the total amount of ammo needed It became a problem sometimes to use the liquid method for volume sorting so I experimented with weight sorting and it proved to be very consistent as long as I did proper prep and kept the batches/lots separated. I verified the consistency for my self buy liquid testing a batch that I had weight sorted and was pleased with the results both from the volume and the SDs. I did the same prep when liquid testing except for having
to install a spent primer, remove it after testing and clean and dry the cases (More steps to an already slow process) I didn't mind the time liquid testing if it was beneficial but with weight sorting The end results were very close and much faster and became a routine.
So In My opinion, It doesn't matter which way you measure case volume, as long as the cases are as close as possible and SDs are lowered.
Unfortunately there is no perfect method but any effort will/does help.
J E CUSTOM
I have tried every method known to man and settled on the weight method after many accuracy test. what I found was that any form of case volume sorting was beneficial, so I highly recommend doing it if you want to load good ammo.
As many have said, don't worry about it, And for many years I didn't. Then along came long range hunting and that was a game changer. Making a poor shoot on paper is one thing, but wounding and animal is another so I set out to see if I could improve my ammo for the long shots.
I found that starting with new brass was the best in the long run. I prep all of my brass while it is new (The prep is to get all of it the same physically on the out side and in the flash hole). It the brass is physically the same on the outside and weighs the same, (same amount of brass in the cases) The volume is very close to the same.
I prefer the volume method after prepping and tried all types of media and found that using the
Burette method using a liquid (I tried different powders and found none desirable including ball powders) The liquid also had its problems and a wetting agent had to be used to break the surface tension in order to get good consistent volumes. This required special chemicals and was slow and messy (No problem for me) I had a good method and good equipment so I felt confident it was the best.
With time and the total amount of ammo needed It became a problem sometimes to use the liquid method for volume sorting so I experimented with weight sorting and it proved to be very consistent as long as I did proper prep and kept the batches/lots separated. I verified the consistency for my self buy liquid testing a batch that I had weight sorted and was pleased with the results both from the volume and the SDs. I did the same prep when liquid testing except for having
to install a spent primer, remove it after testing and clean and dry the cases (More steps to an already slow process) I didn't mind the time liquid testing if it was beneficial but with weight sorting The end results were very close and much faster and became a routine.
So In My opinion, It doesn't matter which way you measure case volume, as long as the cases are as close as possible and SDs are lowered.
Unfortunately there is no perfect method but any effort will/does help.
J E CUSTOM
JE Custom,
That was a huge help and answered all of my questions. For the amount of time I'm willing to spend on brass prep, weight sorting sounds like a great compromise. I used to do it, but never really tested it against not sorting. Now that I have a new lot of 6.5 SAUM brass, I'm going to give sorting a try again.
One question, I have already shot about 200 rounds of the brass. Is it worth weight sorting? If so, should I keep the fired and unfired separate or can I mix them once the 2 groups have the same number of firings?
Thanks,
Bill
That was a huge help and answered all of my questions. For the amount of time I'm willing to spend on brass prep, weight sorting sounds like a great compromise. I used to do it, but never really tested it against not sorting. Now that I have a new lot of 6.5 SAUM brass, I'm going to give sorting a try again.
One question, I have already shot about 200 rounds of the brass. Is it worth weight sorting? If so, should I keep the fired and unfired separate or can I mix them once the 2 groups have the same number of firings?
Thanks,
Bill
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
I would/do recommend keeping brass sorted by number of firings and lot. In fact After I weight sort
(All one lot) I keep the different batches that weighed the same as each other, but different than other batches in separate containers with there weight on them and shoot the largest batch until they wear out and have to be discarded. In my loading data I make a note of the first batch weight so when I change to a new batch, I can closely match the first batch and hopefully not have to alter my load very much if any. this also keeps me from having multiple brass failures. when one goes bad I know the others are soon to follow, so as I shoot them I throw them away.
If you have already fired some cases that were not weight sorted, keep them separated from the new cases that you intend to sort before you shoot them. The fired cases can be weight sorted after they are prepped just like the new cases and will be fine but you will probably end up with different batches and weights. (I bought some plastic containers from Wall-Mart with lids that are good for case storage and identification.
PS: after all this brass prep, I check my loading quality with a concentricity gauge to make sure I have good concentric loads. And for weight sorting I use a good electronic scale because it is fast and easy (Be sure and let it warm up for about 30 minutes before using).
I used this same method of batching and tracking firings when I was liquid volume sorting.
Hope this helps
J E CUSTOM
