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These types of threads are always interesting because there are so many people who read one thing or another or shoot a factory rifle with a 3 shot group or 2 and eureka they have the answer.
Short answer is that some BR guys weigh and some don't I am a 1K guy who will be getting into the point blank game as well soon (have a secret weapon rifle and boolits!) who does not BUT I check bearing surface and sort religiously. My mentor and Smith who is one of the best on the planet does not do either and all of his fame came in the point blank game 100-200 yards because he did extensive testing and determined it was a waste of time.
Also, shoots his own bullets 66.7 gr 6mm FB.
Short answer is that some BR guys weigh and some don't I am a 1K guy who will be getting into the point blank game as well soon (have a secret weapon rifle and boolits!) who does not BUT I check bearing surface and sort religiously. My mentor and Smith who is one of the best on the planet does not do either and all of his fame came in the point blank game 100-200 yards because he did extensive testing and determined it was a waste of time.
Also, shoots his own bullets 66.7 gr 6mm FB.
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My 2 cents, if weighing your bullets gives you more than a tenth over or below nominal or measuring them gives you more than a .001 diference anywhere on it except overall length, I would be buying different bullets. If you cull 30 per hundred, you can pay 30% more for the best stuff made.
LongBomber
Well-Known Member
I think you will find that much variation, and more, in almost every mass manufactured bullet. I think in hunting bullets you will find a multi-modal weight distribution from mixing production lines. Now I don't know if it will make any difference in accuracy, but it does make for an interesting discusion. I don't sort any of my 200gr accubonds for my 300rum, and it will hold .5moa for vertical at 1000 yards. I don't know if sorting by weight is of much use at all, maybe I will try sorting by bearing length. Now a custom bullet may get you more consistency I am not sure.
Anyway here are a few pics of some random bullets I picked off my shelf:
308 200gr matchking
308 190gr VLD
7mm 154gr Hornady SP
308 165gr accubond
308 130gr TSX
Anyway here are a few pics of some random bullets I picked off my shelf:
308 200gr matchking
308 190gr VLD
7mm 154gr Hornady SP
308 165gr accubond
308 130gr TSX
Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
If you look down through the bullets you have weighed, you will find "Mr Wierdo" hiding out in the 130 grain TSXs. That one weird and goofy bullet that is extremely different than the rest is the one I am looking for when I weigh bullets. I seldom know why a bullet has an extreme weight that is different than the rest but I prefer not to shoot it. What we can tell is something is different with it. It might shoot just fine but then again why waste a hunting trip finding out it wasn't alright.
FYI it has been proven time and time again by the 1k BR crowd that sorting by ogive with an ogive checker such as the Buhay (sold by RW Hart under their name) will cut groups at 1k in half if your using the 300 SMK in particular and they will be rounder. It will cut vertical for sure. You can use two Hornady comparators on a dial caliper, but you have trouble maintaining the same pressure, where the Buhay checker is uniform tension and no self inflicted variance.
Sierra used to run all the SMKs off different machines into the same box, after numerous complaints they now run all machines separately into separate boxes. I have seen .0017 variance in one 500 box of 175 SMKS. I ended up with about 40 bullets that varied by over .003.
If you weight 1000 bullets you will find those anomolies that you must throw out or they will be out of the group.
The winners consistently sort by ogive even the bergers. the only ones that do not have to be sorted are the BIBs due to them being a flat base and way more consistent than the BT bullets. Most of the top guys are using Juenkes to sort by deviation units even further. That is a little more contraversial though.
BH
Sierra used to run all the SMKs off different machines into the same box, after numerous complaints they now run all machines separately into separate boxes. I have seen .0017 variance in one 500 box of 175 SMKS. I ended up with about 40 bullets that varied by over .003.
If you weight 1000 bullets you will find those anomolies that you must throw out or they will be out of the group.
The winners consistently sort by ogive even the bergers. the only ones that do not have to be sorted are the BIBs due to them being a flat base and way more consistent than the BT bullets. Most of the top guys are using Juenkes to sort by deviation units even further. That is a little more contraversial though.
BH
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
Proven by who & how?
The BUHAY is not an ogive checker, but a bearing surface comparator..
What is your basis for this?
Have you measured deviations across a chronograph?
Yes, the use of the common name versus the technical. Results are the same though.
I have seen up to 3 grain difference on a 6.5 142 SMK. You really think they will shoot the same? Go ahead waste your time, match fees thinking they will? Go for it.
sorting the 300 SMK by weight and ogive variance cut group sizes by 50% when people were trying to use the 338. Confirmed repeatedly.
Across the average consumer chrono does not tell a lot, but groups at 1000 confirm!
If you do not think it matters, then do not do it, but guys who spend thousands on guns, match fees each year have confirmed to their satisfaction and they are routinely in the winners circle. The Shooter of the Year in 2009, sorts his Berger 210s and routinely finds about 10 or so out of each thousand that are way out of his norms. He has shoot them with normal ones testing and they routinely fall out of the group. He sorts by weight, Juenke for deviation units and then ogive.
BH
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Mikecr
Well-Known Member
Plenty of claims, and similar to others from competition (like weighing brass).
But again, no actual basis..
No examples that pass tests..
No numbers other than anomolies by proxy..
If I declared that any one thing in this world cuts most hunter's groups in half, would you actually believe that?
IMO, It would be extremely tough to prove.
And so the statement should be atleast challenged for a real basis.
But again, no actual basis..
No examples that pass tests..
No numbers other than anomolies by proxy..
If I declared that any one thing in this world cuts most hunter's groups in half, would you actually believe that?
IMO, It would be extremely tough to prove.
And so the statement should be atleast challenged for a real basis.
RMulhern
Well-Known Member
For years I made my own .30 caliber match grade bullets for NRA HP shooting; basically shooting the .308 Winchester cartridge. I've made bullets with as much variation as 3 grains variation and at 300 yards testing 20 shot groups they'd all **** nigh shoot into one ragged hole!!
What WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE is the length from the base to the ogive....which basically effects the bearing surface! I was the first maker to offer VLD bullets for the M14 Service Rifle which would remain super-sonic at 1000 yds. Sold a bunch to the USMC Rifle Team at Quantico one year....and when the Service Teams went to Camp Perry for the Nationals....the USMC beat the socks off the US Army that year in LR....shooting my Delta Precision Bullets!
What WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE is the length from the base to the ogive....which basically effects the bearing surface! I was the first maker to offer VLD bullets for the M14 Service Rifle which would remain super-sonic at 1000 yds. Sold a bunch to the USMC Rifle Team at Quantico one year....and when the Service Teams went to Camp Perry for the Nationals....the USMC beat the socks off the US Army that year in LR....shooting my Delta Precision Bullets!
Challenge away, because you are never going to believe that is obvious.
For others with open minds, talk to Dave Tooley, Bill Shehane, Mark King, John Buhay, Danny Brooks, Bob Rosen, etc etc. All top 1k shooters, record holders , Shooters of the Year that have tested and PROVEN that it does matter if you are trying to squeeze that one bit of accuracy. I have gone thru enough boxes weighing and sorting to know it is there.
I have done my own testing with 1K guns that are truely capable of shooting one ragged hole at my 300 yard test range and seeing which bullets get thrown out. No I did not write up a scientific report with records to prove it to someone who does not want to believe and I would not waste the time, because the protocals would never satisfy you anyway. However, it was consistent and repeatable, that is all it took to convince me.
going thru that process and discovering what actually comes in a box and complaining to the mftrs is what got the process changed at Sierra for example to tighten up and quit putting all machines bullets down the same line mixed together.
BH
BH those of us that are successful in the 1K BR game know that this is true. Some people will never believe what is obvious to others. The Bearing Surface Controls Pressures which in turn controls velocities.
To make the statement that bearing surface has no "bearing" (pun intended) on the velocity is the same as saying that a 75 fps shot to shot deviation is the same as a 15 fps at 1K. Have been there and done that one. Vertical dispersion will kill an otherwise good relay albeit group or score.
It is also true that for those of us who have the equipment and skill sets to do the little things with equipment to remove all of the variables possible leaves time to focus on the most important component of 1K BR---------CONDITION!!!!!!!!!! When everything is set up correctly and the technique is perfect there should be only one thing in the shooters mind when he or she addresses the rifle---CONDITION and nothing else!!!!!!!!!!
To make the statement that bearing surface has no "bearing" (pun intended) on the velocity is the same as saying that a 75 fps shot to shot deviation is the same as a 15 fps at 1K. Have been there and done that one. Vertical dispersion will kill an otherwise good relay albeit group or score.
It is also true that for those of us who have the equipment and skill sets to do the little things with equipment to remove all of the variables possible leaves time to focus on the most important component of 1K BR---------CONDITION!!!!!!!!!! When everything is set up correctly and the technique is perfect there should be only one thing in the shooters mind when he or she addresses the rifle---CONDITION and nothing else!!!!!!!!!!
I guess I qualify as one with the "open mind" I do not nor have I ever competed @ 1000 yards but if the names of these gentlmen above sort their bullets, brass exc. exc. and they are winning how could I declare that it didn't work ? The ole saying goes "Proof is in the pudding"
BigBuck
