WARNING: NORMA "Whitetail" 6.5 Creedmoor 140gr. SP ammunition- Overpressure!

[Mike Matteson]

I am not a Auto loader shooter per say, but I would think there had to be some problems there. If it was bolt action. I wouldn't have fired more than 1 round. Now I fired thousand of rounds out of my M16 in Vietnam, and never seen anything like that. I probable wasn't looking that much at that time. I more concern about the rifle jamming.

 

[Darryle]

Measure your firing pin, regardless of what you think and the fact that the other ammo exhibited no signs of pressure, you can see pierced primers with an out of spec pin le, ngth and pressure signs with oversized firing pin diameter, the cratering is the main sign, the pin floats and during firing the hot material craters up into the oversized hole.

You can wax eloquent all you want, blame Norma all you want, but until you verify your components, it will not solve the issue.

Simply disassemble the BCG, measure firing pin diameter and firing pin hole diameter, then measure the outside diameter of your craters.

Also, I don't think you would see over pressure signs in a bolt gun.

 

[Deleted member 48126]

It's definitely feasible it's the ammo. It's literally blew apart my buddies trigger tech. It was a $5k custom bolt gun.

 

[BamaMike63]

I'm curious to know, what make is your rifle? Mine is an early SR25 with 5R barrel.

 

[7MMMagnum]

I just purchased an AR10 in 6.5 Creedmoor. In reading some of the responses here I am thinking to myself "what did I get myself into". Have not fired it yet and don't know if I want to. Had no idea gas guns could exhibit so many issues with a factory load. Guess I should have researched more before heading that direction. Been a bolt gun enthusiast most of my life. AR10 a new thing to me.

 

[TAWS]

I had the same problem with my 6.5 Creed. using Hornady 143 grain ELDX round. It tore up a hand full of cases and actually flipped them around in the process of ejecting them blew primers and caused all kinds of pressure problems. I called Hornady and explained the situation and that I thought that the round was to long. The standard Superformance with the 129 grain bullet shot well and and functioned normally. But it was .250 shorter that the 143 grain load. I called the rifle maker and discussed it with them and they said that the chamber was to SAMMI specs. Hornady was called again and told what was up and they said do not shoot those bullets through that rifle. So something was up there. Not long after that the black rifle rounds from Horn. came out. I hope you get it straightened out. Have you checked the length of the round against the seating depth of what your chamber will accept?

 

[spladi]

Moderators:

If there is a more appropriate place to post this, feel free to move it-

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I searched Google for info about this new NORMA branded ammunition after firing the first 5 rounds and seeing the scary looking brass.

Some others have had even worse experiences- The last picture with 8 cases held in a guy's hand is downloaded from Reddit, I'm amazed he kept shooting as long as he did with those pierced and blown out primers.

Last, a pic of rifle and how it shoots with handloads.

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Rifle involved was a 22" barreled APF AR-10 variant in 6.5 Creedmoor.

Here is the email I just sent to NORMA USA:

Hi Selika-

Please find attached the receipt for the two other boxes of the NORMA Whitetail 6.5 Creedmoor 140gr. SP ammunition I had purchased separately from Brownells.

Also attached is a photo of my test target with notes on observed behavior of this ammunition (inconsistent, vertical stringing, pierced primers, high pressure signs on case heads)

See pictures of the recovered brass showing signs of varied and excessive pressures:

Two cases had completely pierced primers, you can see daylight looking through their flash holes. Clearly, this is NOT normal behavior.

All case heads show a round, slightly raised area where brass has flowed into the ejector cutout in bolt face.

I had not previously or since observed this type of case head marking with 4 other makes of commercial ammunition fired in this rifle.

I verified rifle function with two other loads with identical (140gr.) bullet weights which advertise similar velocities to the NORMA 140gr. "Whitetail" after discovering the NORMA ammunition was misbehaving. I confirmed rifle was functioning normally, brass from other makers did not show "flow" into ejector cut & etc.

All of the case heads show extreme flattening of primers, curvature normally seen at edge of primer cup is flattened out. Similarly, other properly functioning ammunition did NOT have this extreme flattening.

The three cases which did NOT pierce primers on firing all show varying levels of "cratering" where primer cup has flowed into area around firing pin. Once again, the other brands tested did NOT crater primers. This issue is NOT due to an oversized firing pin aperture.

The vertical stringing indicates non uniform pressures. Additionally, the brass ejected was dispersed over a much larger "arc" and several feet farther away than has been normal with this rifle, also indicating high pressure AND ap variation in pressures.

The other brands of ammunition tested to verify rifle function did not string vertically to an abnormal extent and their cases ejected with a normal (much smaller) degree of angular dispersion (they all landed neatly in a small area about 4:00 and 10' away).

The rifle is in good condition, it was and still is functioning normally.

Rifle was clean before firing, the chamber and bore were cleaned of all but slight traces of oil, several tight fitting DRY cloth patches were run through bore from chamber end before this test firing. One "fouling shot" was taken at a different target before the 5 shots taken at target which I have included photo of. I could not find/recover that first shot's fired case-

Additionally: Please note that the two boxes of ammunition purchased from Brownells have a different lot # than the three boxes purchased directly from you.

Brownell's purchase lot #:

0030343-02 (two boxes)

NORMA USA purchase lot #:

0030343-04 (three boxes)

I did test 5 rounds of the second purchase (From NORMA, lot # ending in -04) the next day as well. It showed similar overpressue signs and I experienced at least three more cases with pierced primers. I only recovered 4 of these cases.

I've been shooting for 53 years and reloading for over 30 years. I believe the issue here is with the ammunition.

Thanks for your help in returning this.



Regards,


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PLEASE NOTE: The 8 rounds shown in the guy's hand below here are NOT MINE, WERE NOT FIRED IN MY RIFLE. They wrecked somebody else on a Reddit forum's brand new AR. They ARE the same brand/product #, I'm still trying to get his lot # info.

See here:


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Back in the early days of the Creedmoor high pressure was seen with one brand of ammo/ brass and not another similar brand, that said I load my 6.5 Creedmoor HOT, actually over maz. listings and haven't seen any problems in my Ruger LRT. I have also seen the same situation at my local range where a fellow was breaking in a new AR 10 6.5 Creedmoor build, just some input for speculation.

 

[Darryle]

The main reason I think this is a bolt issue is I am not seeing ejector swipes and you are not mentioning hard to extract or failure to eject issues. The FTE issue usually results from too fast of a cyclic speed from over pressure or high pressure rounds that result in damaged cases and/or sharp gouges from the barrel extension during extraction.

Large Frame ARs are fun and can be very accurate and dependable. There are some tuning issues that can be band-aided by an adjustable gas block. I think the only time you should use an adjustable gas block is when you plan on running suppressed. Trying to tune gas pressure to achieve reliable function is a band-aid on an unsupressed rifle. A heavy buffer has corrected every issue with every rifle I have built regardless of chambering. Some of my rifles have buffers as heavy as 8oz, most around or slightly over 5oz and I never build a rifle with a standard buffer.

This is what a small pin high pressure bolt typically looks like, some have double ejector like this one in my 308" LR rig that typically sees high pressure loads that can be finicky to extract and eject. This rig also has a Slash Heavy Buffer kit in it and no adjustable gas block. Before the changes in BCG, buffer and HP bolt, I saw quite a few cratered and pierced primers.

Also, I lied earlier, the pin length on a large frame AR is 3.943" and the pin hole diameter is .065" pin will be slightly smaller, I measured several and they were either .063" or .064" in diameter.

These are all exactly the same load, the first 4 primer pictures are with a standard bolt, the next 3 are with a small pin high pressure bolt.

 

[bert2368]

Anyone near Pine City MN who's got a bolt action and is willing to set off a round of this NORMA 6.5CM in it? I don't own a 6.5CM bolt action, got a couple of 6.5x55 SE bolt guns and one in 6.5-284 NORMA I'm overlooking a soy bean field with at the moment...

I'm going to check base to ogive measurements, then disassemble perhaps 5 rounds of the unfired ammunition and weigh/measure all components.

I'll measure my firing pin dimensions, tip geometry, bolt aperture & FP protrusion. Right after I get done with Bambi.

 

[Darryle]

Bert, I have an extra small pin BCG I am willing to loan you if you are interested. I can get it in the mail today possibly priority mail.

 

[bert2368]

I'm curious to know, what make is your rifle? Mine is an early SR25 with 5R barrel.

If it's me (the OP) you're asking?

Rifle was made by APF, started out as model linked below. I replaced trigger group and altered original stock to have adjustable comb/LOP (the pink stock was on sale for $20, don't judge me!). Haven't done anything to BCG but clean and lube it.

6.5 Creedmoor 22" Hunter

APF 6.5 CREEDMOOR HUNTER

www.apfarmory.com

 

[DoneNOut]

I just purchased an AR10 in 6.5 Creedmoor. In reading some of the responses here I am thinking to myself "what did I get myself into". Have not fired it yet and don't know if I want to. Had no idea gas guns could exhibit so many issues with a factory load. Guess I should have researched more before heading that direction. Been a bolt gun enthusiast most of my life. AR10 a new thing to me.

I've learned a lot after my Aero M5 308 build. 3yrs later I discover a heavier buffer could solve my ejector swipe issues. Had my adjustable gas block full bleed off with a 3.8oz buffer. Went with a 5.3oz buffer and ejector smears went away and was able to reduce the bleed off. I also learned the gas setting for proper functioning on a clean gun is different for a fouled gun. I set my gas setting for fouled and I should be GTG now.

 

[bert2368]

Bert, I have an extra small pin BCG I am willing to loan you if you are interested. I can get it in the mail today possibly priority mail.

 

[jasonco]

Let me esplain, too long. Let me sum up. It is what it is, been there dun that.