VLD's, ULD RBBT's, SMK's, etc

[metau]

VLD\'s, ULD RBBT\'s, SMK\'s, etc

I know that I have read several posts/threads about these bullets used for long range hunting with stunning performance, but I do not remember seeing/reading anything about short range shots. I am curious as to how they perform out of various calibers in short range situations? Does anyone have any experience with this? I am curious about under 200 yards, and while we are on the subject, what about the 200-500 yard range as well?


Jerry

 

[Fiftydriver]

Re: VLD\'s, ULD RBBT\'s, SMK\'s, etc

If your shooting close range like this I would recommend a stouter bullet such as an Accubond. These bullets are designed to offer down range advantages, not for close range shooting.

In moderate calibers they would work well, in magnums your asking for trouble.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[SES50]

Re: VLD\'s, ULD RBBT\'s, SMK\'s, etc

When you say asking for trouble, do you mean that the bullet is most likely break into multiple pieces or punch through without expanding?

I am currently starting to load for long range but that does not mean that I am not going to pass up a 150 yard shot on a good deer if I get it. I would say breaking up is not that bad when you hit a deer at 150 yards with a 210gn VLD Berger out of my 300 win mag. I am sure if the shot placement is still not that good there will be enough colateral damage that the deer will not go that far.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Re: VLD\'s, ULD RBBT\'s, SMK\'s, etc

When someone asks about big game hunting without specifying what game they will be hunting, I always assume elk. The reason, because as soon as you assume they are just referring to deer and you recommend a certain bullet, say a 140 gr Berger VLD in 6.5mm and they take it out at 150 yards and drive it into the shoulder knuckle of an 800 lb mature bull elk and the thing runs off for a mile before giving up the ghost, it then comes back on the one that recommended the bullet.

For deer hunting, you would be hard pressed to find a bullet that will not work very well. In fact, in many cases, as you state, the softer the bullet the better but I still prefer a bullet that will exit and most of these bullets will in moderate calibers at close range.

When I say your asking for trouble I mean that an instance where you only have a shot where you need to penetrate significantly before even reaching the vitals or when centering a shoulder bone on a bull elk are required.

I am not a fan of the TX heart shot. Many have no problem taking this shot, I can not and to this point in my hunting carreer have not and that has led me to let some very big critters walk. I just can not take that shot with a good conscience. Many to and thats their call, not mine to say it is right or wrong as long as they cleanly kill the animal quickly.

When I refer to needing to penetrate significantly before entering the vitals I am referring to quartering away shots when the bullet in most cases will have to pass through the paunch, liver and then up into the vitals to do the damage.

For these shots, I would not recommend this type of bullet except on deer size game.

And for intentional impacts on the shoulder of a bull elk, at close range your chances of bullets failing to penetrate into both lungs increases significantly with these bullets.

Again keep the bullet behind the shoulder and there will be no problem but that does not always happen.

This all is effected by muzzle velocity as well.

You could put any bullet you wanted over say 150 grains in a 30-06 and you would get good terminal performance because that round velocity range is not hard on any bullets.

Now, stick a 140 gr 6.5mm VLD in my 6.5mm Allen Magnum and drive it to 3550 fps and you may have penetration issues at close range on heavy game.

There are so many variables to consider when selecting bullets but for me anyway, in high velocity rounds at close range, there are better choices then these bullets. That is one reason I load my Allen Magnums up with VERY heavy bullets for caliber size. Keeps velocity to a reasonable level and also adds alot of sectional density for penetration in the event of a close range shot or heavy game. At long range the long bullets just add BC to the game.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[metau]

Re: VLD\'s, ULD RBBT\'s, SMK\'s, etc

Thanks for clarifying that Kirby. SES50 kinda hit it right on the head as to what I was getting at. If I was set up to shoot across a small canyon, say 700 yards, but a deer or elk walked up on me at 75 yards, would the bullet do its job? I am all about taking an animal as far as one is comfartable with and good enough to do so, but I have never met anyone that has said that they would pass on an animal because it was too close.

Since you mentioned velocity, at approx. what velocities would these bullets beform repectably on both deer ad elk sized game? Thanks again.

Jerry

 

[Bigcat_hunter]

Re: VLD\'s, ULD RBBT\'s, SMK\'s, etc

How do you think a 300g SMK travling @ 2700 fps would perform close range?

 

[SES50]

Re: VLD\'s, ULD RBBT\'s, SMK\'s, etc

Sorry to hijack this tread but am very interested in this from a guy that does a lot of magnum work.

Lets stick with elk as our medium for this conversation and since I got drawn for them in Montana this year I am very interested since I was not going to change my load. I am currently using 210 VLD's in my 300WM as I stated above. I was not planning on changing my load because I figured I had enough weight that I should be fine for a very high percentage of the shots I will take be taking. To state for the record I figure shots form very close range out to around 600 yards. My groups with the rifle I plan on taking are around 3/4 MOA so I do not want to stretch to far beyond that from an accuracy point of view when wind and elements start to add in and plus it is on elk. Muzzle velocity is around 2800fps if I recall correctly.

Would you use this load or would you change to a different bullet?

 

[Buffalobob]

Re: VLD\'s, ULD RBBT\'s, SMK\'s, etc

[ QUOTE ]
but I have never met anyone that has said that they would pass on an animal because it was too close.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hello

How are you doing.

Let me introduce myself.

Here is a story of a deer that was only worth shooting at becuase it was over 1K. Once I was at 50 yards it was only interesting to shoot it with the camera.

Peeonit


Now then, many years ago I blew up a match bullet on a deer at about 40 yards with nonfatal results when the bullet hit the high shoulder. The wounded deer was killed by my partner after about a mile of tracking. Take Kirby's advice. It is good advice.

 

[Jon A]

Re: VLD\'s, ULD RBBT\'s, SMK\'s, etc

I got this guy:

At 15 paces with the 240 SMK from my 300 RUM. The bullet performed pretty much exactly the way it performed at 300 and 500 yds--blasted a big hole all the way through and killed the critter on the spot. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I can't say with certainty how well the lighter ones will work at close range (especially on bigger game) though since I just haven't used/tested them enough yet. But the above bullet has earned my confidence for all around use.

Of course, I'm still looking for better. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Fiftydriver]

Re: VLD\'s, ULD RBBT\'s, SMK\'s, etc

Metau,

Giving a fixed velocity range for your questions would be very hard to do. The reason is because there are so many variables in these bullets. Comparing a Berger VLD to a SMK is hard to do because the SMK has a MUCH thicker jacket and will not expand as easily as a thin j-4 jacketed Berger bullet.

Some of the Wildcat ULD RBBTs have jackets that are heavy enough they would punch clear through any bullet elk on the planet when shot at any range at any velocity. This is one bonus of going with custom bullets, you can often get them to serve a specific purpose.

The reason I use the ULD RBBTs in my Allen Magnums is for the specific reason both of you are referring to. They are ballistically amazing at long range and carry an extreme amount of velocity and energy out to a very long distance and still open up well at long range with the jackets we are using.

Also, they are very heavy with high SD numbers so for close range shots, even though they may well loose over 50% of their total weight, they still have alot to easily get the job done penetration wise.

Velocity wise, if your bullet impacts will be over 2800 fps you should be using a pretty stout bullet. IF your impacts will be over 3000 fps, you need a seriously stout bullet.

When impact velocities drop under 2500 fps, most bullets will work well.

At impact velocites below 2200 fps or so, you really need a soft bullet or a bullet with an expansion initiator such as a tipped bullet to insure good expansion at these velocity levels and below.

Again, no clear cut numbers, just general references and just my opinon as well. Ask 10 different people and thats how many different opinions you will likely get.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Fiftydriver]

Re: VLD\'s, ULD RBBT\'s, SMK\'s, etc

Bigcat_hunter,

YOu will never have a penetration problem with the 300 gr SMK at 2700 fps at any range because of its very high sectional density numbers. Any game at any range, pull the trigger.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Fiftydriver]

Re: VLD\'s, ULD RBBT\'s, SMK\'s, etc

SES50,

If it were me personally with your 300 Win Mag and using a bullet in that weight class, and limiting shots to 600 yards, I would more then likely test out the 200 gr Accubond or a heavier jacketed Wildcat bullet in that weight range.

The 210 VLD will certainly work well at any range past 200 yards. Even at close ranges it will work very well if you keep shots off heavy shoulder bones. Even in the event of a solid shoulder bone hit, more then likely, at the velocity you are at, you will get he job done, but the % of problems will increase with this bullet at close range on heavy game compared to say a 200 gr Accubond which is dramatically stouter and better suited for close range impacts.

My opinion mainly comes from the fact that you will be limiting yourself to 600 yards. Out to that range, you will be very hard pressed to see much difference between the 200 gr Accubond and 210 gr VLD ballistically. Yes the VLD will have less wind drift but not by much and if the wind is blowing enough for that to be a real benefit, you probably should not be taking the shot anyway in those wind conditions.

At 600 yards, the accubond will also expand more reliably then the VLD as well because of its tip.

If you were talking about 1/2 mile shooting, I may go away from the accubond and look more at a heavier jacket version of the wildcat bullets. They would offer the BC of the VLD but with a stouter jacket so they would perform better at close range but still offer superior ballistic performance at long range.

Again, if the accubond shot well, I would use that bullet. If it did not, I would use your VLD load and remember to avoid heavy shoulder bones at close range.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Fiftydriver]

Re: VLD\'s, ULD RBBT\'s, SMK\'s, etc

Another example of the stouter jackets on the SMK bullets and the fact that pretty much any bullet will easily punch through any deer size game at any range.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[jmden]

Re: VLD\'s, ULD RBBT\'s, SMK\'s, etc

Fifty,

What are your thoughts on a 240SMK at 3K launch speeds close up on elk shoulders?