Virgin brass, or once fired!

[7stw]

Something has been bugging me about brass, virgin brass, either processed, or out of the box, versus once fired!
First of all, Butterbean , made mention of it in his thread, MY FIRST TIME, but I want to explore other people's thoughts, and experiences , with accuracy, from virgin brass, versus once fired.
I have had two rifles, in different calibers, that would , with virgin brass, shoot better groups, hands down, then it would with any combination of resizing, or lack of. Full length, partial, neck sized, didn't matter. It shot ok, but no where's near what the virgin did.
Secondly, do you shoot the whole box, or do do take out and shoot through a batch, then start over.
Thoughts and experiences appreciated!
Be safe All!

 

[338 dude]

Well here's my guess if you load two cartridges to the same overall length but virgin brass is .005 shorter than fire formed or once fired brass when they are loaded to the same length you think you are jumping say .020 and that may be accurate in your rifle but if the brass you started with was .005 shorter upon expansion would you really be jumping .015 this is why I say it is a guess does the case stretch first or does the neck open up and release the bullet first?

 

[Deputy819]

Secondly, do you shoot the whole box, or do do take out and shoot through a batch, then start over.

I shoot through the whole lot (both new and fired) before doing any of the prep operations. I think it's always a good idea to clean, anneal, size, trim ALL of your brass at the same time for the sake of consistency for the whole lot of brass you're using.

I have had two rifles, in different calibers, that would , with virgin brass, shoot better groups, hands down, then it would with any combination of resizing, or lack of. Full length, partial, neck sized, didn't matter. It shot ok, but no where's near what the virgin did.

I've seen things get 'wonky' before concerning the differences between new and fired brass. However, once I accounted for the changes in the brass as best I could and 'tweaked' the load how it needed to be things settled back down and all was well again......for the most part.

 

[Beluebow]

Well here's my guess if you load two cartridges to the same overall length but virgin brass is .005 shorter than fire formed or once fired brass when they are loaded to the same length you think you are jumping say .020 and that may be accurate in your rifle but if the brass you started with was .005 shorter upon expansion would you really be jumping .015 this is why I say it is a guess does the case stretch first or does the neck open up and release the bullet first?

If you used the base of the case as the datum line and seated the bullet to the same OAL... the jump would be the same regardless of the length of case. Assuming the bearing lengths were within reasonable tolerance of each other.

 

[bigngreen]

If you used the base of the case as the datum line and seated the bullet to the same OAL... the jump would be the same regardless of the length of case. Assuming the bearing lengths were within reasonable tolerance of each other.

Except when you fire it drives the case forward and your shoulder to ogive is now the seating depth not base to ogive.

 

[JMW67]

Something has been bugging me about brass, virgin brass, either processed, or out of the box, versus once fired!
First of all, Butterbean , made mention of it in his thread, MY FIRST TIME, but I want to explore other people's thoughts, and experiences , with accuracy, from virgin brass, versus once fired.
I have had two rifles, in different calibers, that would , with virgin brass, shoot better groups, hands down, then it would with any combination of resizing, or lack of. Full length, partial, neck sized, didn't matter. It shot ok, but no where's near what the virgin did.
Secondly, do you shoot the whole box, or do do take out and shoot through a batch, then start over.
Thoughts and experiences appreciated!
Be safe All!

your once fired brass will never be sized back down as far as virgin brass so the case capacity will be a little different this is why I never do load development with virgin brass

 

[7stw]

Well here's my guess if you load two cartridges to the same overall length but virgin brass is .005 shorter than fire formed or once fired brass when they are loaded to the same length you think you are jumping say .020 and that may be accurate in your rifle but if the brass you started with was .005 shorter upon expansion would you really be jumping .015 this is why I say it is a guess does the case stretch first or does the neck open up and release the bullet first?

This is what gets me, in most of everything that I've owned, custom chamber included, MY best accuracy came from once fired, or twice fired.
On a whim, I loaded some ammo, for my 7-08 the other day, (Lapua), didn't process it. Primed, charged, and seated. Haven't shot it yet, wind has been crazy here.
Do you all process virgin brass, or wait until first firing. The premium brass, usually dosent need much anyway. ????????

 

[Beluebow]

Except when you fire it drives the case forward and your shoulder to ogive is now the seating depth not base to ogive.

Can you explain how that works with a bullet into the lands and how it changes the seating depth?

The base of the case IS the datum line, that doesn't ever change.

 

[7stw]

your once fired brass will never be sized back down as far as virgin brass so the case capacity will be a little different this is why I never do load development with virgin brass

JMW, on that particular rifle, when I hunted with it, I used the virgin load. Even the once fired loads were very good, but the virgin loads were bugholes, literally.
Butterbean, just had similar experience.
I've some loaded now, but not shot yet due to weather.
Just looking to see what other members are seeing, and whatever reason they've came up with.

 

[DucNutz]

Do you all process virgin brass, or wait until first firing. The premium brass, usually dosent need much anyway. ????????

I don't mess with new brass much, I do run a mandrel or expander ball through it to make sure the neck is round. Even on the expensive nice stuff I've found necks out of round.

 

[338 dude]

Except when you fire it drives the case forward and your shoulder to ogive is now the seating depth not base to ogive.

That was my thought exactly

 

[338 dude]

JMW, on that particular rifle, when I hunted with it, I used the virgin load. Even the once fired loads were very good, but the virgin loads were bugholes, literally.
Butterbean, just had similar experience.
I've some loaded now, but not shot yet due to weather.
Just looking to see what other members are seeing, and whatever reason they've came up with.

According to my line of thinking if your magazine allows it try seating your bullets closer to the land that may be the difference in accuracy right there

 

[bigngreen]

Can you explain how that works with a bullet into the lands and how it changes the seating depth?

The base of the case IS the datum line, that doesn't ever change.

I did not see that this thread was about into the lands loads, all I see is first firing vs second firing.
The base of the case moves the amount of headspace you have which changes your seating depth except maybe but not all the time in a jambed bullet situation

 

[Beluebow]

I did not see that this thread was about into the lands loads, all I see is first firing vs second firing.

And I believe I replied to the case length comment not headspace.