Vertical stringing

[rem.xp100]

Inconsistent cheek weld can cause many things including vertical stringing.

I've had many customers put the gun to their cheek and then move slightly to align the scope view. When I say "you just moved your head" they say "no I didn't". They clearly move their head so it is inconsistent but even when called out on it, they say they haven't moved. They don't realize they are doing it. Add a cheek pad or adjustable setup so they can get aligned properly and the groups come right in nicely.

 

[BC Sportsman]

I was getting the exact same problem with my 300 Win Mag, 3/8" - 1/2" horizontal groups and vertical stringing between 1 and 1.25". Happened with quality ammo and hand loads with single digit SD. I was shooting off a Caldwell Rock BR Competition Front Rest and Armageddon rear bag. I even had a guy with great shooting skills try it out in case "its me". He got the same results. Turns out that with the light weight of the rifle and an inadequate muzzle brake, it was muzzle jump. I got good groups (less than 1/2") when I simply used my left hand to firmly hold down the fore end of the rifle. I guess you could do the same by holding down the scope. I just purchased a better muzzle brake but haven't tried it out yet. Will be doing some shooting at the end of the month.

 

[Bdog35]

I've got a new build that I'm trying to figure out why I'm getting vertical stringing while doing load development. All groups are within 1/2 moa at 100 width size but most are 1.5 moa vertical. Alot of the groups have two or three all clustered and then one high or low. It's completely random as it's not always the last shot or first. Some groups have been good. 4 shot groups.

Rifle is a trued 700 with a bartlein 3b barrel chambered in 300 win with a 26" barrel and a mbm beast brake.

I'm shooting off a bipod with a rear bag. Really focusing on the fundamentals and being consistent. However, i do feel like it's probably me and not the rifle. Possibly a recoil management issue? Possibly not loading the bipods correctly? Looking for advice from maybe an instructor or someone that's dealt with diagnosing these types of issues. Thanks in advance

If

 

[Bdog35]

Inconsistent cheek weld can cause many things including vertical stringing.

I've had many customers put the gun to their cheek and then move slightly to align the scope view. When I say "you just moved your head" they say "no I didn't". They clearly move their head so it is inconsistent but even when called out on it, they say they haven't moved. They don't realize they are doing it. Add a cheek pad or adjustable setup so they can get aligned properly and the groups come right in nicely.

If

Watch for downward pressure on your stock at the cheek weld.

 

[Joefrazell]

Anybody here in the Boise area that knows how to shoot well? I know alot of people that don't know how to lol

 

[Blackhawk]

I've got a new build that I'm trying to figure out why I'm getting vertical stringing while doing load development. All groups are within 1/2 moa at 100 width size but most are 1.5 moa vertical. Alot of the groups have two or three all clustered and then one high or low. It's completely random as it's not always the last shot or first. Some groups have been good. 4 shot groups.

Rifle is a trued 700 with a bartlein 3b barrel chambered in 300 win with a 26" barrel and a mbm beast brake.

I'm shooting off a bipod with a rear bag. Really focusing on the fundamentals and being consistent. However, i do feel like it's probably me and not the rifle. Possibly a recoil management issue? Possibly not loading the bipods correctly? Looking for advice from maybe an instructor or someone that's dealt with diagnosing these types of issues. Thanks in advance

Load development is kinda like a labor of love . So many variables and so - much trigger time. I spent a great deal of time developing a particular recepie and know first hand just how time consuming it can be.
After assembling all your components and starting with your basic load development ,first establish your bullet to rifle 's jump at land contact.. Now using that and your recommended powder charge(lets say 10% under max)Use your chronograph to establish a baseline. Now watch your ES & SD numbers.
What I do is using the same load of powder & not changing it at all load 25 rounds in intervals of 5 each varying your bullets jump by lets say .010" until you have loaded and shot all 25 rounds in 5 shot increments.
What I do Is use a magic marker and color code the primers.( the jump data will be changing as you continue to establish the correct jump)
My first jump will be .003" and then in .010" increments. (note you may have to repeat this test several times until optimum jump has been established)
Watching your ES &SD you may have to keep increasing your jump until your groupings become consistent.
Once this has been established you can start making adjustments to your powder. Remember that although MV is important accuracy is IMHO more so.(emphasizing here to log all your findings for reference)
Just keep going until your Chronograph is indicating to you your best load recepie.
It will take time but your end results will be worth it , just remember again to keep careful notes.
Make certain that your action screws as well as all your scope mounting screws are torqued to the correct settings beforehand, an just check them before every shoot.
You just watch your bullet placement improve!
Remember Your Chronograph is your best friend!

 

[Joefrazell]

Alright, went back out today and this is what I found. I shot 3 shots of 74.5 grains and 3 shots of 76.5 gr. over the magneto speed to check out my velocity. I know that's way to small of a sample but I think it worked.

74.5 gr. 2882fps, 2855, 2881 .863" wide and 1.056 tall
76.5 gr. 2980, 2973, 3004 .638 wide and .715 tall

So these are pretty huge extreme spreads especially for these small of batches. I can only imagine what a 10 shot test would show.

When I did my original ladder test the group was .8 wide and 1.6 tall

Here's what the groups have done at 100 yrds all 4 shot groups except 77 gr. was 3 shots as I was getting a slight heavy bolt.
74 gr .617 wide 1.1 tall
74.5 .294 wide .362 tall
75 .211 wide 1.05" tall
75.5 .297 wide .936 tall
76 .674 wide 1.54 tall
76.5 .619 wide 1.467 tall
77 .290 wide 1.4 tall

I took it out to 360 yards today and shot these groups
74.5 3 shots 1.352 wide and 3.928 tall
76.5 1.754 wide and 5.572" tall

So what I'm thinking is my sd and es is just too much for this cartridge and barrel length/ profile. I think it's getting alot of barrel whip and is really showing up on the vertical with these velocity variations.

Also, it's important to note that I shot all my groups today off of a Caldwell tack driver and a rear bag so it's definitely not the bipod as I was thinking it could be. Also, don't think it's me. Focused on fundamentals again and made sure I adjusted out all parallax. Also allowed plenty time between each shot. Barrel never warmed up.

Im going to order the wiser precision magneto speed mount so that I can track all my velocity and be sure it's a velocity es/sd issue. Also will work on getting my es and as down. I think I'm gunna start my volume sorting my brass or maybe getting better brass and then weighing it. What do you guys make of this? Any thoughts or suggestions from here?

 

[Blackhawk]

Alright, went back out today and this is what I found. I shot 3 shots of 74.5 grains and 3 shots of 76.5 gr. over the magneto speed to check out my velocity. I know that's way to small of a sample but I think it worked.

74.5 gr. 2882fps, 2855, 2881 .863" wide and 1.056 tall
76.5 gr. 2980, 2973, 3004 .638 wide and .715 tall

So these are pretty huge extreme spreads especially for these small of batches. I can only imagine what a 10 shot test would show.

When I did my original ladder test the group was .8 wide and 1.6 tall

Here's what the groups have done at 100 yrds all 4 shot groups except 77 gr. was 3 shots as I was getting a slight heavy bolt.
74 gr .617 wide 1.1 tall
74.5 .294 wide .362 tall
75 .211 wide 1.05" tall
75.5 .297 wide .936 tall
76 .674 wide 1.54 tall
76.5 .619 wide 1.467 tall
77 .290 wide 1.4 tall

I took it out to 360 yards today and shot these groups
74.5 3 shots 1.352 wide and 3.928 tall
76.5 1.754 wide and 5.572" tall

So what I'm thinking is my sd and es is just too much for this cartridge and barrel length/ profile. I think it's getting alot of barrel whip and is really showing up on the vertical with these velocity variations.

Also, it's important to note that I shot all my groups today off of a Caldwell tack driver and a rear bag so it's definitely not the bipod as I was thinking it could be. Also, don't think it's me. Focused on fundamentals again and made sure I adjusted out all parallax. Also allowed plenty time between each shot. Barrel never warmed up.

Im going to order the wiser precision magneto speed mount so that I can track all my velocity and be sure it's a velocity es/sd issue. Also will work on getting my es and as down. I think I'm gunna start my volume sorting my brass or maybe getting better brass and then weighing it. What do you guys make of this? Any thoughts or suggestions from here?

Please establish your bullets starting jump dimension. This is where your bullets ojive will make contact with your barrels lands.After removing the bullet attached to your brass case carefully measure your COAL. It will be easier to use a Stony Point (now Horandy) LNL straight OAL Gauge. simply by using a Horandy Modified Case( or by making your own which is a better and more accurate choice) Simply use an I or L drill and open your primer pocket to receive a 5/36TPI tap and tap out your primer pocket hole.(Plenty of How - to's on the WEB)
Using both the OAL gage and the Horandy Bullet Comparator Set (insert #8 = .30 Cal you can now establish a guide line COAL. This established number will not co inside with any other numbers ,especially a pair of calipers. This number will be a reference figure only to aid in establishing your rifle and only this rifles chamber to your rifle's chamber to land dimensions using a given bullet.
You must use both the Horandy OAL gage with the the #8 - .030 insert and by using your presses bullet seating die keep reducing your COAL by first -.003" for the first five cartridges then reduce by .010" increments of 5 ea. until you have manufactured 25 cartridges.
Example: Case OAL = 2.742" touching lands
-.003" = 2.729" load 5 rounds
-.010" = 2.732" load 5 more rounds
-.020" = 2.722" load 5 more rounds etc.
REPEAT until all 25 rounds have been made.
Now go to the range and set up your Chronograph and record your ES and SD figures.
PLEASE BE PATIENT you may have to repeat this test several times
As you can see these numbers are not a constant but rather a variable and might require a fine tuning as shown below.
One rifle preferred an .008" jump
Another rifle in the same caliber preferred a jump of .040"
Same brand and same BLUE PRINTED ACTIONS.
Your ES and SD numbers will tell the story.
Once you have established your SD and ES numbers( the tightest and smallest groupings) you can repeat this with your powder.
I moved in 1/3 of a grain increments and again marked these loads in separate plastic ammo boxes and again went back to the range. ( I found my best results were achieved by almost compressing my powder)
So just be patient and let your chronograph perform its duties.
At some point you will see a node where your bullets will show your best velocity and ES as well as SD numbers.
Now you have found your optimum powder, bullet and jump settings!
Just move slowly , but deliberately and you will achieve your goal.
Just remember to document everything and download your chronograph readings to your computer for further reference.
If you need more guidance PM me.

 

[Blackhawk]

Just remember there are many ways to skin an ELK , but only one way to cook it and have it become a tasty meal.
That is to correctly follow all your procedures from start to finish
Remember your chronograph is your best friend !

 

[Joefrazell]

Please establish your bullets starting jump dimension. This is where your bullets ojive will make contact with your barrels lands.After removing the bullet attached to your brass case carefully measure your COAL. It will be easier to use a Stony Point (now Horandy) LNL straight OAL Gauge. simply by using a Horandy Modified Case( or by making your own which is a better and more accurate choice) Simply use an I or L drill and open your primer pocket to receive a 5/36TPI tap and tap out your primer pocket hole.(Plenty of How - to's on the WEB)
Using both the OAL gage and the Horandy Bullet Comparator Set (insert #8 = .30 Cal you can now establish a guide line COAL. This established number will not co inside with any other numbers ,especially a pair of calipers. This number will be a reference figure only to aid in establishing your rifle and only this rifles chamber to your rifle's chamber to land dimensions using a given bullet.
You must use both the Horandy OAL gage with the the #8 - .030 insert and by using your presses bullet seating die keep reducing your COAL by first -.003" for the first five cartridges then reduce by .010" increments of 5 ea. until you have manufactured 25 cartridges.
Example: Case OAL = 2.742" touching lands
-.003" = 2.729" load 5 rounds
-.010" = 2.732" load 5 more rounds
-.020" = 2.722" load 5 more rounds etc.
REPEAT until all 25 rounds have been made.
Now go to the range and set up your Chronograph and record your ES and SD figures.
PLEASE BE PATIENT you may have to repeat this test several times
As you can see these numbers are not a constant but rather a variable and might require a fine tuning as shown below.
One rifle preferred an .008" jump
Another rifle in the same caliber preferred a jump of .040"
Same brand and same BLUE PRINTED ACTIONS.
Your ES and SD numbers will tell the story.
Once you have established your SD and ES numbers( the tightest and smallest groupings) you can repeat this with your powder.
I moved in 1/3 of a grain increments and again marked these loads in separate plastic ammo boxes and again went back to the range. ( I found my best results were achieved by almost compressing my powder)
So just be patient and let your chronograph perform its duties.
At some point you will see a node where your bullets will show your best velocity and ES as well as SD numbers.
Now you have found your optimum powder, bullet and jump settings!
Just move slowly , but deliberately and you will achieve your goal.
Just remember to document everything and download your chronograph readings to your computer for further reference.
If you need more guidance PM me.

You are completely right. I need to do a seating depth test. Right now Im .015" off the lands. I think I'll do a seating depth test and shoot it at distance of 400 plus yards once I get the wiser precision magneto speed mount. I've decided I'm not shooting anymore until I can read every single bullets velocity while also checking group and vertical dispersion. Why waist anymore ammo. If I can get the vertical to come down and be more in line with the horizontal this rifle will be shooting very well. Fingers crossed!

 

[ladebenken]

I don`t know how good you are at shooting, but its typically shooter error when you allways get a flyer, especially when its vertical.

I think you have inconsistant recoil uptake.

ES doesn`t mean much at 100 meters. We got a really bad batch with match ammo for competition shooting. The ES was at over 30 m/s ( 90-100fps) in cal 6,5x55. At 100 meters it shot consistant 15-20 mm. (1/2+MOA)

Load development means much shooting, lets say 5 loads, and 5 shots. = 25 shots. Have you ever tried a known load that shots well to shoot a 25 shot group? Still 1/4 MOA? I start loosing concentration after about 10 shots...

 

[Joefrazell]

I don`t know how good you are at shooting, but its typically shooter error when you allways get a flyer, especially when its vertical.

I think you have inconsistant recoil uptake.

ES doesn`t mean much at 100 meters. We got a really bad batch with match ammo for competition shooting. The ES was at over 30 m/s ( 90-100fps) in cal 6,5x55. At 100 meters it shot consistant 15-20 mm. (1/2+MOA)

Load development means much shooting, lets say 5 loads, and 5 shots. = 25 shots. Have you ever tried a known load that shots well to shoot a 25 shot group? Still 1/4 MOA? I start loosing concentration after about 10 shots...

Im thinking the difference in velocity is changing the node if that makes since. Just the slower velocity alone doesn't make since but if the barrel harmonics change then the poi may change alot more. This is my thought. Maybe I'm thinking wrong here. But I feel my shooting has been pretty solid through this. Try to always pull the rifle into the shoulder with my shooting hand (roughly the weight of the rifle). Nice clean straight back trigger press and always staying strait and square behind the rifle. If it is me that's fine too. Just need to figure it out so I can fix the problem. I'm not the best shooter by any means and am always trying to improve.

 

[Canhunter35]

Check your grip.
You should be firmly squeezing with ur 3 fingers, ur thumb should be relaxed, pay attention to ur trigger squeeze, do some dry fire practice

 

[Joefrazell]

Check your grip.
You should be firmly squeezing with ur 3 fingers, ur thumb should be relaxed, pay attention to ur trigger squeeze, do some dry fire practice

I have been doing alot of dry fire practice and really fine tuning my npa with my hips and getting zero reticle bounce when dry firing. Also paying close attention to my follow through.

I am seeing the reticle come up and right (left handed shooter) a good about under recoil. I'd say 5 ft up and 5 ft right at 100 roughly. It's got a good brake and I can shoot it all day long but there's still some recoil being a 300 win with 215's


I took a video I'll try to upload it and see if anyone sees something I don't.