Velocity vs group size

[screech]

I've always ran the best grouping, low es loads and never really cared much for if it was slow or fast I just figured it was what it was and if it took me another minute or two then so be it. Then I read an article and it showed a point of diminishing returns on accuracy vs percent chance of hitting a certain size object. If I remember right it was like a 10 inch circle at 700yrds. The difference between a 1 Moa and a .5 Moa gun hitting it was like 8 percent. I may have numbers wrong on article if someone else read it but I wasn't concentrating at the time real hard on it. It got me thinking if I should care more about velocity. So just as a for instance question, would you rather shoot a 3/8 Moa gun at 2900 vs a 3/4 Moa gun at 3150. With every thing other than group and velocity being equal. Or would you be better off having the superior ballistics in environmental cheating of the faster load. This is just hunting not competition. What do you guys do. Ran the numbers and it was like a 3 Moa elevation difference at 7-800 yards or something along those lines

 

[dok7mm]

I guess I fall in the faster is better group, as long as it's not giving my brass a short life. I seem to be pretty lucky at finding a high node that will shoot as well as the lower nodes. It may take a bit more tuning of components to get there, but it's worth it.

Higher B.C. bullets at faster speeds, as you noted, will cheat the environment somewhat and deliver more energy down range.

 

[Georgiashooter]

No sense in more velocity if you are cutting your chance in half hitting the target. Add in shooter error on trigger pull and wind read, and your chances of a clean hit just went south. I'll take accuracy over speed.

ETA: I may be biased tho,if u look at my avatar, I like building accurate rifles!! Lol

 

[dok7mm]

No sense in more velocity if you are cutting your chance in half hitting the target. Add in shooter error on trigger pull and wind read, and your chances of a clean hit just went south. I'll take accuracy over speed.

I get the accuracy and a reasonably fast velocity and I assure you I'm not cutting my chances of hitting the target "in half". I simply stated that you can have both accuracy and velocity, with the right platform and load development.

 

[Georgiashooter]

dok7mm, I was referring to the OP question regarding a 1 moa gun vs a .5 moa gun. You are correct. I would compromise a little velocity for a little more accuracy.

 

[odoylerules]

Here's an excerpt from that article that you're talking about. The facts are taken from the book by Bryan Litz...

"Essentially, what the chart is saying is if you were firing at a 10" circle at 700 yards with a rifle capable of 1 MOA, you'd have an 69.7% chance of hitting the target. But if your rifle capable of 0.5 MOA, that would jump to a 78.3% chance of hitting that same target. So by tightening our groups to 0.5 MOA, we've increased our chances of hitting the target by almost 8.6%. If we continue to refine that load, and can get to 0.3 MOA then that boosts our chances to 79.9%. So there is only a 1.6% gain there, and if you're able to go from a 0.3 MOA group all the way down to a tiny 0.1 MOA group, your odds only increase by 0.8%"

 

[HARPERC]

I don't use my chronograph much, so I guess that makes me more accuracy oriented. That has it's limits as well, I've never owned a pure BR rifle.
So it's kind of a revolving door of speed, relative to the game being played at the time (staying super sonic, maintaining a terminal velocity).
Accuracy, a squirrel rifle needs more than a general big game rifle. I'm not a 1000 yard game shot, so my needs may be different than yours.
On the other hand, I place no limits on how far I would shoot at a coyote, or a rock chuck.
Volume plays a role as well, loads for shooting sage rats at several hundred a day don't get the attention as those made for 10-20 shot days at chuck's.

 

[flashhole]

I go for accuracy too. During load development using the OCW method I generally find two nodes, one at "low" velocity, one at "high" velocity very near max load. I always go for the higher velocity node just to increase my 4" point blank range. Here in the hardwoods and farm fields of Upstate NY we don't get many long shots at anything. 300 yards would be considered a really long shot. With my handloads I've been able to get sub MOA performance out of all my factory hunting rifles and considerably better than MOA with a couple of them.

 

[screech]

Here's an excerpt from that article that you're talking about. The facts are taken from the book by Bryan Litz...

"Essentially, what the chart is saying is if you were firing at a 10" circle at 700 yards with a rifle capable of 1 MOA, you'd have an 69.7% chance of hitting the target. But if your rifle capable of 0.5 MOA, that would jump to a 78.3% chance of hitting that same target. So by tightening our groups to 0.5 MOA, we've increased our chances of hitting the target by almost 8.6%. If we continue to refine that load, and can get to 0.3 MOA then that boosts our chances to 79.9%. So there is only a 1.6% gain there, and if you're able to go from a 0.3 MOA group all the way down to a tiny 0.1 MOA group, your odds only increase by 0.8%"

Yes I believe it was a Bryan Litz article. I ran under the thought that a group half the size was twice as accurate as well
So I run under the same theory as Georgia shooter but then after reading an that article if going from 3/4 to 3/8 say only helped my percentage say 5 percent would the speed thing help it improve more. Idk just something I've rolled around in my head lately

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I agree that less time of flight equals less time for error.

The math is over my head, but I would say that the same bc bullet going faster with slightly less group size accuracy than a slower load would have better odds on target for 1st round hit. Time of flight is particularly important when the target may decide to move when the trigger is broken. Less time of flight means less wind drift.

Steve

 

[Rich Coyle]

tag

 

[flashhole]

Also keep in mind higher velocity means higher recoil and potentially less control of the shot. I snug up to the big boomers pretty tightly and absorb recoil. Seems to aid in accuracy for me, maybe just technique but I have shot my rifles enough to understand their behavior and what works best when trying to make bug-hole groups on a piece of paper.

 

[Mikecr]

So what was the context of the article?
Anything at all to do with velocity?
If the gun was 1moa accurate at 700yds, then why the low 'chances' of hit?

 

[odoylerules]

In Bryan Litz's book Accuracy and Precision for Long Range Shooting, he gets into all the variables like wind, yardage estimation, SD/ES and group size,etc etc.
He breaks down each category and shows it effects on hit percentages. You can have a great grouping rifle, but if 1 or more of the other variables is off you won't always hit your target. It's a great book, very dry though. Reads like a science textbook