I have a Savage 243 that shoots great, but will copper foul after a few rounds. It's a bear to clean. Has anyone tried the Tubb Final Finish Bullet to polish the barrel or is it better to use JB compound. It takes me an hour to clean. Don't have a bore scope, but the last two inches at the muzzle will show heavy copper fowling within 5 rounds! Any suggestions???
Tubb Final Finish
- Thread starter sendero72
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royinidaho
Well-Known Member
I'll save you the trouble of a search.
Go here: http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/final-finnish-81658/
Go here: http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/final-finnish-81658/
TikkaShooters
Well-Known Member
You can read my review of it on my site...
In short, I would never use the full kit in a gun that already shoots well. I would only use 1/3 of the kit per of each bullet stage.
In short, I would never use the full kit in a gun that already shoots well. I would only use 1/3 of the kit per of each bullet stage.
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
I've used it to help with heavily fouling factory barrels, and to break-in aftermarket barrels. I also dress up the lands with Tubbs TMS every ~300rnds.
No problems so far.
I don't believe use of all bullets in a kit, on one barrel, was ever intended. I use a few of each grit. That's it. Brake-in in 10rnds.
JBs could never do the same thing as firelapping. There's just nothing in common really. JB is for cleaning out carbon.
Firelapping is not cleaning. It's knocking off of machined edges(from chambering) and drilling high spots down the bore. I like to think it also contributes to a slight bore taper, ensuring tightest at the muzzle. This I believe is why barrels often shoot a little better after treatment. Can't prove it, but there is no other reason I can think of for this result.
Also, many believe firelapping is polishing, it is not. Polishing a bore increases fouling.
Least fouling bores are lapped at a specific grit.
You wanna mess up a barrel? Use Flitz or JB 'bore polish'. This will cause crazy copper fouling, until the bore is re-lapped properly, which by then may be detrimental.
I learned this easy enough(ruining a really good barrel).
Tubb's works. It's safe.
No problems so far.
I don't believe use of all bullets in a kit, on one barrel, was ever intended. I use a few of each grit. That's it. Brake-in in 10rnds.
JBs could never do the same thing as firelapping. There's just nothing in common really. JB is for cleaning out carbon.
Firelapping is not cleaning. It's knocking off of machined edges(from chambering) and drilling high spots down the bore. I like to think it also contributes to a slight bore taper, ensuring tightest at the muzzle. This I believe is why barrels often shoot a little better after treatment. Can't prove it, but there is no other reason I can think of for this result.
Also, many believe firelapping is polishing, it is not. Polishing a bore increases fouling.
Least fouling bores are lapped at a specific grit.
You wanna mess up a barrel? Use Flitz or JB 'bore polish'. This will cause crazy copper fouling, until the bore is re-lapped properly, which by then may be detrimental.
I learned this easy enough(ruining a really good barrel).
Tubb's works. It's safe.
Michael Eichele
Well-Known Member
This info ^^^ is 100% correct in my opinion.
If you have any JB laying around, throw it away. It will clean a barrel fast and polish it just as fast. Polishing a bore reaps nothing but EVIL.
Michael Eichele
Well-Known Member
Gene,
Think of new bores from custom shops as not polished but finished. Lapping removes tool marks and make the bore uniform. They use grits SEVERAL times rougher than the grit of JB, Flitz or Iosso. There is a reason for that. You want you bore 'smooth' but NOT polished. Polished increases copper fouling due to the increased surface area and subsequent friction.
Yes, some of the top match shooters use JB. They also have lots of barrels at their disposal. Many other top shooters admit that JB increases fouling due to polishing. They admit it cleans copper and fouling fast but also breaths life to more fouling.
If you doubt this, take a new barrel, break it in, develop some loads, note how easy it is to clean and then start using JB in your cleaning regimine. You will notice how quickly and badly your 'new' barrel will start copper foul.
Think of new bores from custom shops as not polished but finished. Lapping removes tool marks and make the bore uniform. They use grits SEVERAL times rougher than the grit of JB, Flitz or Iosso. There is a reason for that. You want you bore 'smooth' but NOT polished. Polished increases copper fouling due to the increased surface area and subsequent friction.
Yes, some of the top match shooters use JB. They also have lots of barrels at their disposal. Many other top shooters admit that JB increases fouling due to polishing. They admit it cleans copper and fouling fast but also breaths life to more fouling.
If you doubt this, take a new barrel, break it in, develop some loads, note how easy it is to clean and then start using JB in your cleaning regimine. You will notice how quickly and badly your 'new' barrel will start copper foul.
bruce_ventura
Well-Known Member
Michael Eichele said:
I accept your observation that polishing makes fouling worse. Your explanation doesn't make sense to me, though. Doesn't polishing reduce surface area and friction? What am I missing?
Michael Eichele
Well-Known Member
A feshly cut barrel with tooling marks is rough. A lapped barrel is smooth in the sense that the tool marks have been removed and the surfaces are even but the bore is 'rougher' than a 'polished' bore.
Think of a polished bore like perfectly clear glass versus a peice of glass with a very fine frost to it. You want your barrel to be like the frosted glass. It is still smooth but anything but polished.
Which of the two do you think has more surface area? Hopefully you answerd the clear peice.
The more contact the bullet has with the barrel, the more friction you have, the more fouling you have. The more it is polished, the more the bullet will contact the bore.
I understand we are talking microscopic differences here but it is those microscopic differences that make the difference between a barrel that fouls worse than others. I am not saying that the more rough the barrel the less it fouls. There is a VERY fine balance to the right roughness/smoothness for optimum performance. Too rough = bad fouling. Too polished or too smooth also = bad fouling.
I think you need to define what you are calling surface area. The blasted glass will have more surface area but if you are creating friction between it and another smooth object there will be less contact area and less friction.
Michael Eichele
Well-Known Member
I understand rougher finishes have more 'area'. Surface area, to me is the area at the surface. In other words, where whatever object is coming into contact with the surface of the other object is the surface area.
Like the difference between racing slick tires and mud tires. Equal width for equal width and diameter, the racing slicks have more surface area than the mudders.
If my definition is not technically right, I appologize.
Like the difference between racing slick tires and mud tires. Equal width for equal width and diameter, the racing slicks have more surface area than the mudders.
If my definition is not technically right, I appologize.
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
Better aftermarket barrels arrive with a perfect hand lapped finish. Like Michael said, it's not too fine, or too rough. It's perfect for least copper fouling.
Neco is not Tubb's, and nobody ever suggested that you should excessively firelap. Excessive anything is bad.
Competitors keep their barrels in a stable state, and manage carbon or bullet coating buildups. They use JB NON-EMBEDDING BORE CLEANING COMPOUND. When needed, I use it also:
J-B® NON-EMBEDDING BORE CLEANING COMPOUND - Brownells
What they don't/shouldn't use(ever) is JB BORE BRIGHT(I called it bore polish earlier): J-B® BORE BRIGHT - Brownells
I know the marketing claims this & that for Bore Bright.. It is bad marketing, and I have a friend that recently ruined a 6br barrel with it. He didn't realize there were two different JB compounds out there, and sure enough used the wrong one. Then when his fouling increased he took advice from these forums and used even more!
bruce_ventura
Well-Known Member
Michael Eichele said:
Ok. I get it now. Glad I asked.
I'm a chemist by training, so I understand "surface area" to be something different. Lower contact area makes perfect sense to me. Thanks.
Mike - We are talking about semantics here. I always thought lapping and polishing the bore were synonymous. I am attaching an ineresting dissertation by Fred Bohl regarding the subject. Note he refers to it as: "Rifle Bore Lapping/Polishing — F. Bohl 26 April 2005"
His eight page article can be found at:
http://www.twincityrodandgun.com/PDF files/Rifle Bore Lapping.pdf
I agree with you re the JB non imbedding paste with the blue labrel. Gene
His eight page article can be found at:
http://www.twincityrodandgun.com/PDF files/Rifle Bore Lapping.pdf
I agree with you re the JB non imbedding paste with the blue labrel. Gene
