Trying to find accuracy in a 45-70 405 Gr Bullet with 4198 powder.

[jfloyd]

I just got the hi-tek polymer coating and began to read the directions. This looks like a far more detailed operation that I was hoping. As I read the instructions, it stressed how clean the lead bullets need to be. So I first melted the wax ring off with a heat gun and then soaked them in acetone, wiping them off and then soaking them again to get rid of the residue film that might coat them. But then I thought of trying the powder coat again. Perhaps my bullets were just not clean enough. I followed your instructions and put some air soft bb's in it. The powder seemed to take. At least better than before. My first attempts, it did not take at all whatsoever. I am using white. It at least turned the bullets gray. So I cooked them and then ran them through the tumbler again. The second coat did not seem to make them much whiter - if any at all. But anyway, they did take some coating. Now, I am wondering about lubricating them. I don't have a lubra-sizer and cannot find one. So, will this coating be enough to keep it from leading the barrel or do I need to coat the bullets? Should I find a way to fill the wax ring or just coat them with allox? I don't know how fast these 405 gr. bullets are going yet. I am pushing these with 42.5 grains of IMR 4198. They are going faster than cowboy loads. BTW, I just found on the label of these bullets a "CB" in the description. Evidently they are for cowboy loads. I am guessing they are too soft for the speed I want to push them. I am hoping this coating will alleviate this issue. I cannot find bullets anywhere.

The coating does replace the need to use a lube. Sizing is another issue but those Bullets were likely too small before the coating process. I run 36 grain of IMR4198 in my 16" 458 SOCOM and get 1600 FPS with a 405 bullet so you are probably pushing 1900-2000 I would guess. I'd try a hand ful and add layers of coating to get larger diameters to find what works. You might still be too hot for a CB alloy bullet. If so, slow it down some. Keep us posted.

 

[Les in Wyoming]

The coating does replace the need to use a lube. Sizing is another issue but those Bullets were likely too small before the coating process. I run 36 grain of IMR4198 in my 16" 458 SOCOM and get 1600 FPS with a 405 bullet so you are probably pushing 1900-2000 I would guess. I'd try a hand ful and add layers of coating to get larger diameters to find what works. You might still be too hot for a CB alloy bullet. If so, slow it down some. Keep us posted.

I appreciate the help on this because it is new territory for me. I have tried loading these as low as 32 grains on up to 45 grains. Some of those loads were with poly-coated 405 bullets of the same shape. The most accurate were 42.5. I got good accuracy with 44 grains once, but it didn't perform as well the next time. So I am kind of stuck with the 42.5. I hope these powder coated bullets perform as well as the poly-coated bullets do in that load. I am using no lube on those at all. Would there be any harm in lubing these powder coated bullets for extra insurance?

 

[WHITEBULL]

If the lead projectiles are made for Cowboy shooting, I wouldn't use these at higher velocities. 42.5 grs. is higher than I would go with soft lead. You don't need to push those big slugs at high velocities for them to perform.

 

[Les in Wyoming]

If the lead projectiles are made for Cowboy shooting, I wouldn't use these at higher velocities. 42.5 grs. is higher than I would go with soft lead. You don't need to push those big slugs at high velocities for them to perform.

What would you say is a good load? Below 30 grains?

 

[Hoppsing55]

I am shooting a Marlin 1895 CB and have procured a bunch of cast 405 gr bullets. I am limited to 4198 powder as I have invested myself in 8 + lbs of it.

This gun shoots 300 grain bullets accurately with 40 grains of IMR 4198. I have the Lyman book, but it is limited in loads. I have shot 37, 38 and 40 grains under a 405 cast bullet. They shoot all over the place like they were shot from a sling. 40 grains gives a hard wallop with the 405 grain bullet. I don't know that I want to go higher. I will if it would increase accuracy, however.

Is seating depth as critical in this round with a heavy crimp? Should I chase the lands of the rifling and ignore the cantilure? Or should I just load it to the recommended OAL? I could really use some helpful input. Thanks

Les, have the same gun and had a similar experience. In developing a load, 1200 - 1300 fps seems to be the sweet spot for my 45/70, pushing 405's. See attached /100 yd. Load formula's that took me over those velocity levels, produced terrible accuracy.

 

[Les in Wyoming]

Les, have the same gun and had a similar experience. In developing a load, 1200 - 1300 fps seems to be the sweet spot for my 45/70, pushing 405's. See attached /100 yd. Load formula's that took me over those velocity levels, produced terrible accuracy.

That is extremely useful. Thanks. I will load up some in that range and see how they do.

 

[warboar21]

If your powder coating is completely covering your bullets then you will be fine. Adding more lube to them will not hurt anything but it's not really going to matter much. With the powder coating you can push these bullets as fast as you could push any jacketed bullet. I have pushed 450gr bullets over 1900fps and the lead was dead soft but powder coated. Same goes for paper patching a bullet. You are in essence creating a jacket.

 

[Les in Wyoming]

If your powder coating is completely covering your bullets then you will be fine. Adding more lube to them will not hurt anything but it's not really going to matter much. With the powder coating you can push these bullets as fast as you could push any jacketed bullet. I have pushed 450gr bullets over 1900fps and the lead was dead soft but powder coated. Same goes for paper patching a bullet. You are in essence creating a jacket.

This is good news. I have already loaded some light loads to try as well as hotter ones. I would like to know more about paper patching a bullet and how to do it though.

 

[memtb]

Les in Wyoming. My hunting rifle was built in Roger Green's shop in 1989! Had some friends that lived in Glenrock!

While you've received a lot of good info, take a look at the Cast Boolits (yes boolits) forum. The forum is for cast bullet shooters.....more knowledge than you can imagine! memtb

 

[WHITEBULL]

It's kind of like an Easter egg hunt! Keep searching until you find what you're looking for. Good luck!

 

[Les in Wyoming]

OK, so I coated these soft lead bullets and tried them out. I loaded them with the same load I use for the poly coated bullets, (42.5 grains 4198 405 gr bullet) but also tried 3 with half a packing peanut stuffed into it for wadding. I am shooting at 60 yards. The first one (without the peanut) shot a horrible 10" horizontal group. But the next three shot a 3" vertical group. Not an exceptional group, but way better than the other without it. A half a packing peanut takes up more room than the powder and bullet. In other words, they are packed down tight. I have read somewhere you cannot compress 45-70 loads. Now that I have loaded 10 more, I want to double check. I have to roll these between the fingers, insert them and stuff them in. Then the bullet shoves them down the rest of the way.

It appears that I can only get a 405 grain bullet of any kind to shoot with only marginal accuracy. But this thing loves 300 grain bullets no matter how you shoot them. I want it to like 405. I am wondering about seating depth? Shooting a Marlin 1895 cowboy. I have been seating all bullets at 2.550 as per the specifications. Has anyone messed with bullet jump in these rifles? Thanks.

 

[WHITEBULL]

I ALWAYS load to saami specs for this round. There's alot going on with this big *** load to get " creative " IMO.

 

[warboar21]

If you're not careful you can ring your chamber with wads. You can quickly exceed pressures when compressing powder charges. I would only use wadding/fillers if the load calls for it.
Do you have any other powder on hand or is this all you have?
Have you checked your bore for leading? This could be causing accuracy issues. I would run a tight dry patch down the bore and see if you get any lead on the patch. If you do then I would recommend a few things to do to remove it.

 

[Les in Wyoming]

If you're not careful you can ring your chamber with wads. You can quickly exceed pressures when compressing powder charges. I would only use wadding/fillers if the load calls for it.
Do you have any other powder on hand or is this all you have?
Have you checked your bore for leading? This could be causing accuracy issues. I would run a tight dry patch down the bore and see if you get any lead on the patch. If you do then I would recommend a few things to do to remove it.

I need to know more about ringing the chamber. I read reference to this in one other place but don't know what it is. How do I know it is doing this? Will a packing peanut compress the load to do this? It obviously improved accuracy on the 3 shots I tried. But I don't want to mess up the gun. Any info is appreciated.

I cleaned the gun thoroughly after shooting straight lead bullets. I have only shot coated bullets or copper jacketed bullets since. The 300 grain copper jacketed bullets are very accurate.