Truing an action over rated?

[J E Custom]

I have observed that there are two forms of accuracy, One is accuracy that can only be improved by the owner/shooter because the rifle/ firearm is out shooting the shooter. This is the desired state of accuracy because everything is like it should be and dependent on the skill and practice of the shooter.

The other form of accuracy is when a shooter has reached the level of accuracy built in the rifle package and the ammo and can no longer improve the accuracy on his/her best day. Many shooters reach this level on occasion and except it as good. I have seen this many times in different types of competition where scores are kept and the shooter improves over time and then all of a sudden, he/she hits a wall and can no longer improve there scores (Accuracy) some times it is their limits, but most of the time it is there equipment limits.

Some times this can be figured out and the solution's can be a simple change in the method or the equipment. Ideally, You never reach the rifles accuracy level and keep improving to your potential.

If a rifle/firearm is absolutely true and everything is as good as it can be, the rifle will always out shoot the shooter. This is the most desirable state in my opinion and accuracy is in the hands of the shooter and he/she can depend on his equipment to out perform him so he tries to do his best every time and has no one to blame but himself if accuracy is not as good as it could be.

If a firearm is just assembled with little though for extreme precision. it can be a good shooter but never a great shooter. How ever if a firearm is well assembled with the number one goal of precision in every area, They are normally very forgiving with different loads and accuracy is excellent and sometimes scary accurate. By truing everything including the ammo you can have one of these, and be challenged every day to shoot your best.

"That's good enough" Is ok for some, but not for others and even though they know they will never reach a one hole group (.0000) they never stop trying. Truing an action is just one step in the pursuit of accuracy.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Alibiiv]

I just had a custom rifle built by a highly respected gunsmith in Montana; a Ruger 77, tang safety in .270 Ackley Improved. I mentioned truing the action, squaring the bolt face and lapping the lugs. He told me that he would measure the action and do what was necessary to make it a rifle that I will be proud to own and proud to shoot . He stated that not all rifles/actions need to have all that work done to them, some actions are already true. From your OP you wrote that you are shooting a Remington action, "everyone" works on Remington actions, so you ought to be able to find a reliable gunsmith, at a reasonable price to work on your build for you. Because I wanted to make my build on the Ruger 77 action, I did not have that luxury. I was told, "We don't work on Rugers," or, "Rugers are not strong enough for us to work on and the receivers can crack when the barrel is tightened," or maybe you just don't like working on Rugers because you are not tooled up for the work period. I understand what you are writing about when you say that you are new to the "custom build" experience. I found this experience to be frustrating and sometimes confusing when deciding what work I wanted done and stay within my budget; but.....when the build is done it is very rewarding. I'd like to say that the caliber you have decided on (.280AI) is an excellent one, and....that decision is half the battle.

I recently picked up another Ruger 77 tang safety rifle that is sort of what I call a "beater" rifle.The rifle will be a hunting rifle and I will try to get it to shoot at its best potential. If the rifle shoots that is great, it will be along on a hunt, if something happens to my/someone's rifle it will be something that I don't mind having them use; I will not say that about all my rifles. I am not sure if I read about this company in this thread/posting, but did find it in one of the replies in the forum. The gunsmith/company is called "Ragged Hole" barrels. The company uses Wilson barrels and offers a rebarrel package for $800 that includes your action blueprinted (I'd question what that entails) with your choice of barrel contour. I don't know a whole lot about Wilson barrels, however from a 2015 posting on the forum, "Our local gunsmith thinks $200 Wilson barrels are the best buy and can sometimes match Kreigers for accuracy." When I did a search for reviews on Wilson barrels I found that there were quite a few positive reviews on them. If you run a Forum search on this site you will find some good reviews on Wilson barrels also. I've got an e-mail out to them, hopefully they will work on a Ruger 77. I think that $800 is about in the ballpark for what is offered. And.....I think that there will be others on the forum with some suggestions about gunsmithing as well. Good luck with your build.

https://raggedholebarrels.net/

 

[Don A Parsons]

Well said JE

There was a article that I can't seem to find about the Huston wearhouse project... Of course it does not follow the idea behind this thread of """Trued action or not""",,, but it follows the principles of getting the most out of a rifle,,, stock,,, action,,, barrel,,, trigger,,, booltiz,,, case prep,,, optic,,, the rifle rest / bags and supports to shoot off of,,, and the whole kit and kabodle to make the """whole package deal""" out shoot the shooter...

The 365 yard wearhouse project idea was to eliminate the out side affects that """could""" cause changes in the flight path of a trajectory sent down range...

The article stated that this project paved the way for better rifle barrels,,, better boolit design,,, and attention to details for those of us that like to push the limits of day-to-day,,, month-to-month and year-to-year consistanty,,, the average hunter or part time shooters don't directly benefit from all these extras...

This is not true,,, the on going improvements in the mix like the Houston Project are on the shelves today...

Those fancy boolitz and quality barrels we have access to are part of this and many other accuracy tests performed over the years...

Innovation paves the way into the future in one way or another,,, some are good,,, not so much for others...

Who-da thunk that a button push or pull rifling would work apposed to the single rifling cut...

High BC & SD booltiz allow for distances never thought of 20 to 50 years ago,,, actually the booltiz are leaps and bounds ahead of our rifle actions and most budget made barrels...

The wizer options to drive these high tech trajectories down range with the """least""" deflection is precision firarms...

Again,,, this is more so to do with those of us in the 1 to 2% category,,, that's not saying that 10 to 20% of the shooters aren't chasing the tail winds """if"" we're given the opertunity...

I consider myself self in the low 50% of this even though I enjoy owning rifles that will out shoot my skills every day of the week...

What's the extra cost of $2 to $400 bucks when I'm spending these funds on something I enjoy,,, I don't drink or puff,,, no golf clubs in my house... Ha...

The pitance of quality has a line on what we can afford or choose to spend it on,,, the old saying goes both ways...

What benefits would we see if we go the extra mile or not,,, the only way to know this is start pushing the limits past the 1000 to 1 km mark...

Do we have the skills to go the distance on 10 to 20 shoots down range,,, is the rifle and all the add-ons going to allow for this...

15 boolit into at 13 or 17" target at the 1400 to 1700 metres mark is a awesome feeling,,, I've been there once and have yet to master that for 4 years now,,, the chasing game is on...

What tools do I bring with me to get there,,, what tools do I leave at home that don't benefit this challange...

That's the question I ask my self when I step up to the shooting line...

PS: The average hunter won't benefit form the extra funds if they harvests critters up close in their zone,,, those of us that push these limits might...

 

[J E Custom]

Very well said, Don

J E CUSTOM

 

[Dean2]

My question about lateral spacing was lost!

I talked to one of the Admins because a fairly detailed post I made disappeared. They did lose quite a bunch of posts unfortunately due to a data base error.

To the OPs original question, one of the biggest keys to an accurate rifle is getting the bullet to line up perfectly with the centre of the bore. Truing the action and a quality cambering job are both key to making this happen. Savages floating bolt head helps accuracy greatly specifically because it allows less accurately built actions to still centre the round in the chamber.

For under 500 yards, truing the action on a hunting rifle is probably irrelevant but for LR hunting and for any kind of target shooting it is well worth the price to have it done.

 

[FIGJAM]

I talked to one of the Admins because a fairly detailed post I made disappeared. They did lose quite a bunch of posts unfortunately due to a data base error.

To the OPs original question, one of the biggest keys to an accurate rifle is getting the bullet to line up perfectly with the centre of the bore. Truing the action and a quality cambering job are both key to making this happen. Savages floating bolt head helps accuracy greatly specifically because it allows less accurately built actions to still centre the round in the chamber.

For under 500 yards, truing the action on a hunting rifle is probably irrelevant but for LR hunting and for any kind of target shooting it is well worth the price to have it done.

We lost a lot if good posts...crazy frustrating.

 

[edward hogan]

Waste of money to "true" a Rem 700 action.
Not really that much of a "shooter", your .25-06 SFII. A .338 dia bullet going into 1" @ 200 is much better performing than a .257 dia bullet. Relatively speaking...

If anything, rebarreling your Sendero is the step to take. Then again, a decent barrel and chamber job likely goes for about $600 these days.... Senderos are pretty nice rifles, esp back when they came w/H-S Precision stocks. Most senderos were probably converted or parted-out, so if you believe in "rifle collecting" there might be some stake in just leaving it as-is.

For the money involved and the poor resale value that will result after spending the dough, buy a semi-custom precision rifle or build a custom on an action built to blueprinted specs. Tikka heavybarrels, like their varmint, tactical, and comp rifles range from $800-$1500 and will need nothing. A used Sako TRG-22/42 will need nothing... A .308win or even .260rem or 6.5 CM will deliver much better barrel life than your .25-06. If you're just into barrel-burners, may as well get some real performance for your 800rds and that means 6.5/284...

For about the same money your looking at tying up in your trued SF-II, might find a Winchester 70 Marksman which is custom barreled and custom shop built. The Win 70 Heavy Varmint comes with a Wilson stainless barrel and a pushfeed action (like the 700), but has a true pin blocking safety and simple bolt stripping mid-lever safety setting. No flutes on the barrel, but a better designed H-S stock and way better barrel. They're still around for $600-$800...

The 6.5/284 is basically a clone of the 6.5-06. Unless in-love w/25cal guns, you get more bullet choices and weights to choose from. Nice to be able to shoot 1" groups at 200, but not much to be excited about... When you're getting sub .4" 100s and sub .7" 200s then you're approaching exciting, and that without subtracting bullet diameter.

If anything, your 700 needs a new barrel and the best scope mounting setup you can afford to get it shooting better. A quality scope will also help greatly after the barrel and mount system are sorted out.

 

[edward hogan]

Something else to think about: Are you getting 5 shot groups at 200 shooting offhand? Like, using a sling or some field-rested position? If so, Congrats and that is Real Shooting! But... since this isn't a rehash of Precision Shooting Houston Warehouse results and there may never be again, Here's some wisdom for getting tiny groups: Ditch The .25-06!

The best tiny-group producing ctgs are all along the lines of .222 remington and the PPC jobs. Minimal powder charge and lightweight bullets for most benchrest competitions. Very little disturbance upon firing allowing fast repeats to capture the right condition. Not really a Longrange Hunting sort of game. Kinda doubtful the .25cal jobs are longrange worthy either, not enough weight for wind stability and lower ballistic coefficients. Is a 117gr .25cal bullet a "heavy"? It is in the .25 world. But... A 6mm match at 117gr or whatever David Tubb's bullet weighs has about the premier quality for longrange match work. The 6.5s that can use the 142gr Sierra or Berger are in same ballistic league, BUT their weight delivers more recoil and barrel action than the Tubb match bullet.

If you aren't recoil sensititve, might look at the .280rem and its bullet range. 7mms are about the best performing light bore for weight and BC. .338 is they best longrange performing, again due to bullet choices. For precision, select your bullet and then find your ctg.

 

[MudRunner2005]

Using a .338 for anything smaller than elk, or anything closer than 500 yards, is retarded...Unless they have a complex about having a small ______. Then I guess it makes perfect sense.

 

[bigngreen]

A barrel starts with it's maximum accuracy potential then we have several opportunities to pull accuracy of, the fewer opportunities we leave to rob accuracy and consistency the better.

Every smith has been down this road, guy brings in cheap barrel or take of barrel and wants nothing else done because it doesn't need it and he just want to shoot OK, the next thing you know your being made famous on the internet as the Smith who screwed up his rifle cause it won't shoot in the .1's at 1000 yards with no load work, it's absalutely nuts how stupid some people get but the fact is it's better to turn away work or to put every possible thing in the favor of that rifle shooting awesome and charging for it, you buy some clown a new barrel and chamber job because he was cheap or didn't want to do a quality job and you have to do a lot of jobs to get that money back and you'll never get the time back, that is why most smiths want it done right, your asking them to do less quality work and stand behind it when really you need to send the rifle back to the manufacture and get it rebarreled which many will do and do it cheap!!

 

[dennisinaz]

Yes. Even custom and aftermarket actions need to be trued...At minimum the receiver face and bolt face to ensure they're are close to perfectly square as humanly possible. Ask any smith worth his salt, and even they'll admit this to be true.

I completely disagree with this. I have built the last 4 rifles on Defiance actions. I have checked them for any runnout or misalignment. I could find ZERO on any of them.

As far as truing a 700 action. I wanted to test this out. I took a known rifle chambered 260 Remington. I shot a lot of groups with it. I sent it to Greg Tannel- the guy who makes the tooling everyone else uses to true actions. The rifle was about a 1-1 1/8" shooter before. After truing it was about a solid 1" shooter. A new Krieger barrel was installed (by Greg) and I had it Cryo-ed it and even bushed the bolt face. It was a .75" shooter with the new barrel. I finally rechamber to 260 AI and it suddenly shot like I was hoping.

My experience with action truing is that you are polishing the proverbial turd. It may or may not shine. I don't like to mess with the threads because it is nice to be able to drop a take-off Remington barrel on and be done. Once you mess with the threads, you now have a non-standard barrel thread and any new barrel will have to be cut accordingly.

I will square and action up in a 4-jaw or jig and check the runnout to as little as possible. I then take a very light facing cut-always less than a thousandth. I check the barrel shoulder fit with dye and it is good to go.

I couldn't get the Aeroshell link above to work but it looks like Aeroshell 33, a general purpose synthetic grease used in several general aviation applications. (Piper spec's this grease for the landing gear on the newer PA-28s)

Now When it comes to the locking lugs, what really works well is Dow Corning Molykote G-N. I have found nothing better. I usually buy mine from Skygeeks. I apply it with a toothpick or small drill rod. NO galling, ever.

https://www.motionindustries.com/pr...MIlLq6p9XY4wIVEMNkCh1QZgPCEAQYAiABEgKD-vD_BwE

 

[Alex Wheeler]

A rifle can only shoot as well as the weakest link. Truing the action on a 1" gun is not going to tell you anything when something else is causing it to be a 1" gun.

 

[Joefrazell]

Why leave anything to question. If it's checked and true it's true if it's trued it's true. Should more be said?

 

[MudRunner2005]

I completely disagree with this. I have built the last 4 rifles on Defiance actions. I have checked them for any runnout or misalignment. I could find ZERO on any of them.

As far as truing a 700 action. I wanted to test this out. I took a known rifle chambered 260 Remington. I shot a lot of groups with it. I sent it to Greg Tannel- the guy who makes the tooling everyone else uses to true actions. The rifle was about a 1-1 1/8" shooter before. After truing it was about a solid 1" shooter. A new Krieger barrel was installed (by Greg) and I had it Cryo-ed it and even bushed the bolt face. It was a .75" shooter with the new barrel. I finally rechamber to 260 AI and it suddenly shot like I was hoping.

My experience with action truing is that you are polishing the proverbial turd. It may or may not shine. I don't like to mess with the threads because it is nice to be able to drop a take-off Remington barrel on and be done. Once you mess with the threads, you now have a non-standard barrel thread and any new barrel will have to be cut accordingly.

I will square and action up in a 4-jaw or jig and check the runnout to as little as possible. I then take a very light facing cut-always less than a thousandth. I check the barrel shoulder fit with dye and it is good to go.

I couldn't get the Aeroshell link above to work but it looks like Aeroshell 33, a general purpose synthetic grease used in several general aviation applications. (Piper spec's this grease for the landing gear on the newer PA-28s)

Now When it comes to the locking lugs, what really works well is Dow Corning Molykote G-N. I have found nothing better. I usually buy mine from Skygeeks. I apply it with a toothpick or small drill rod. NO galling, ever.

https://www.motionindustries.com/pr...MIlLq6p9XY4wIVEMNkCh1QZgPCEAQYAiABEgKD-vD_BwE

You're certainly welcome to your opinion... But I'm not going to change mine, just because you don't like it.

Also, that's sad you could only get it to a .75" gun with a $400 cut-rifled Krieger barrel. I have factory (untouched) Remington 700's that shoot far better than that with handloads...With factory barrels. Simply punching the chamber from .260 Rem to .260 AI without modifying anything else, is not going magically make it start shooting 1/4" groups.

Also, most companies making actions don't want people knowing that even though it's a "custom" action with much tighter tolerances than factory cookie-cutters are, they are still mass-produced, and still are prone to having some variance in tolerances with tooling wear throughout the run, if it goes along unchecked for any length of time without adjustment.