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Trueing the action?
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Jim Borden at Borden rifles just announced a line of custom 700 footprint actions for SA and LA to include the large capacity cases. Price is $600 and use Rem triggers
Wanting to own an accurate 300win mag to complement my very accurate .270 and in duscussing my wishes and based on his recommendations, I sent a M700 to a gunsmith in WY to blueprint the action, install a select match grade #4 contour barrel, bed in the factory syn stock and adust the trigger. 2 months later he called and said the rifle is done and it shoots 5/8-3/4 groups with 180 gr SGKs and NPs.
I received the rifle and was never able to better 1.25" with any load. I called the smith to discuss the matter he said that he has a barrel that shoots one hole groups that he checks actions with /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif and that mine was dead on /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif , I called Shilen and they said that select match grade barrels do not come in #4 contour. Needles to say I was BS'd and I have too much money in it to try to rebuild so I just ate my lo$$ and moved on.
I have the bug for another accurate rifle but don't want to go thru another disappointment.
I received the rifle and was never able to better 1.25" with any load. I called the smith to discuss the matter he said that he has a barrel that shoots one hole groups that he checks actions with /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif and that mine was dead on /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif , I called Shilen and they said that select match grade barrels do not come in #4 contour. Needles to say I was BS'd and I have too much money in it to try to rebuild so I just ate my lo$$ and moved on.
I have the bug for another accurate rifle but don't want to go thru another disappointment.
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
BountyHunter,
Not sure what others charge but I charge roughly $550 for a new unfired Rem 700 fully trued receiver. I have also yet to see many of these "lower priced" rem 700 clone receivers that would not benefit greatly from an accurizing process as well.
Just because they say they are custom recievers, do not think they are ready to build on out of the box for true match grade accuracy in the finished product. Some may be but most I have seen for less then $800 are generally not square enough for my liking.
By that I mean that when taking a measurement across the bolt face with the stripped bolt in the locked position in the receiver that four measurements at 12:00, 3:00, 6:00 and 9:00, measured from the receiver face to the bolt face, that there is no greater then 0.0002" variation in all four measurements.
This is the outer limits, most that accurize Rem 700s properly will get 0 to 0.0001" variation across the bolt face.
I will agree that its nice to have more and more receiver options every day though. Hardly a bad thing in this business.
Kirby Allen(50)
Not sure what others charge but I charge roughly $550 for a new unfired Rem 700 fully trued receiver. I have also yet to see many of these "lower priced" rem 700 clone receivers that would not benefit greatly from an accurizing process as well.
Just because they say they are custom recievers, do not think they are ready to build on out of the box for true match grade accuracy in the finished product. Some may be but most I have seen for less then $800 are generally not square enough for my liking.
By that I mean that when taking a measurement across the bolt face with the stripped bolt in the locked position in the receiver that four measurements at 12:00, 3:00, 6:00 and 9:00, measured from the receiver face to the bolt face, that there is no greater then 0.0002" variation in all four measurements.
This is the outer limits, most that accurize Rem 700s properly will get 0 to 0.0001" variation across the bolt face.
I will agree that its nice to have more and more receiver options every day though. Hardly a bad thing in this business.
Kirby Allen(50)
Pete Lincoln
Well-Known Member
Hey Kirby, you want to export some of them new trued 700 actions over here to me for $550 each? it costs me more than that for a bloody new untrued standard remington action over here, Pete
Kirby
that is truly amazing that you sell at completely trued new 700 action for only $550!!! Mabye I misunderstood and you are charging $550 for truing and bolt sleeving on a customer supplied action, which would make more sense.
When you consider any used 700 action sells for $350 and a new action from any supplier will cost $400 or close by itself (even at dealer)unless you buy a 700 from Walmart and still costs $375. That means you are truing AND bolt sleeving for only $200?
Just exactly what do you specifically do on "truing" for only $200?
I know you have mentioned that bolt sleeving is required for a real trued action in this thread, so that has to be part of the equation.
Just where are you getting these cheap 700 actions?
Have you personally looked and measured the Predator, Borden and Lawton actions?
Are you talking some other action and assuming that the actions I mentioned are in that poor condition?
That must be the case because I have never heard any knowledgable 1k or LR gunsmith before claim that a completely trued 700 is as tight tolerance or cheaper than the Predator and Borden actions. I guarantee that Jim Borden and Jerry Stiller would ask you to back that up with specific facts.
You have made two extremely pretty bold statments and would love to hear the specifics backing them up.
Matter of fact I will see Jim Borden later today at the IBS winter meeting will discuss with him.
BH
that is truly amazing that you sell at completely trued new 700 action for only $550!!! Mabye I misunderstood and you are charging $550 for truing and bolt sleeving on a customer supplied action, which would make more sense.
When you consider any used 700 action sells for $350 and a new action from any supplier will cost $400 or close by itself (even at dealer)unless you buy a 700 from Walmart and still costs $375. That means you are truing AND bolt sleeving for only $200?
Just exactly what do you specifically do on "truing" for only $200?
I know you have mentioned that bolt sleeving is required for a real trued action in this thread, so that has to be part of the equation.
Just where are you getting these cheap 700 actions?
Have you personally looked and measured the Predator, Borden and Lawton actions?
Are you talking some other action and assuming that the actions I mentioned are in that poor condition?
That must be the case because I have never heard any knowledgable 1k or LR gunsmith before claim that a completely trued 700 is as tight tolerance or cheaper than the Predator and Borden actions. I guarantee that Jim Borden and Jerry Stiller would ask you to back that up with specific facts.
You have made two extremely pretty bold statments and would love to hear the specifics backing them up.
Matter of fact I will see Jim Borden later today at the IBS winter meeting will discuss with him.
BH
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
BH,
That does not include sleeving the bolt. TO be honest, I am not sure what my opinion of that is yet as far as final results in the rifle. I have built Rem 700 based rifles with double sleeves, with rear sleeves only and with no bolt sleeves at all and all have produced groups in the .1"s at 100 yards in heavy rifles so not sure what benefit there really is in the Rem 700, espeically when you fit the bolt nose recess properly.
THat said, here are my prices currently for such work. I say currently because Rem 700s will continue to increase in price over time.
New, unfired, Chrome Moly Rem 700 Receiver....$375
Receiver accurising...........................$175
Bolt sleeveing, Front and rear................$150
Bolt sleeve, rear only........................$100
To for a double sleeved accurized Rem 700 it would be $700 and rear sleeved receiver it would run $650.
Again, I think the amount of increased accuracy is still out for debate on sleeving the Rem 700 bolt. I am sure it makes some differnece but to what degree I can not measure in my rifles.
I will say it is much easier to get a consistant, Light trigger pull with at least a rear sleeved Rem 700 bolt. Another major improvement is to use a custom match grade striker assembly. I use the Gre-Tan assembly exclusively in my rifles and this alone will also tighten up trigger to cocking piece fit and improve trigger pull consistancy.
Sorry for the confusion on pricing /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif!
Kirby Allen(50)
That does not include sleeving the bolt. TO be honest, I am not sure what my opinion of that is yet as far as final results in the rifle. I have built Rem 700 based rifles with double sleeves, with rear sleeves only and with no bolt sleeves at all and all have produced groups in the .1"s at 100 yards in heavy rifles so not sure what benefit there really is in the Rem 700, espeically when you fit the bolt nose recess properly.
THat said, here are my prices currently for such work. I say currently because Rem 700s will continue to increase in price over time.
New, unfired, Chrome Moly Rem 700 Receiver....$375
Receiver accurising...........................$175
Bolt sleeveing, Front and rear................$150
Bolt sleeve, rear only........................$100
To for a double sleeved accurized Rem 700 it would be $700 and rear sleeved receiver it would run $650.
Again, I think the amount of increased accuracy is still out for debate on sleeving the Rem 700 bolt. I am sure it makes some differnece but to what degree I can not measure in my rifles.
I will say it is much easier to get a consistant, Light trigger pull with at least a rear sleeved Rem 700 bolt. Another major improvement is to use a custom match grade striker assembly. I use the Gre-Tan assembly exclusively in my rifles and this alone will also tighten up trigger to cocking piece fit and improve trigger pull consistancy.
Sorry for the confusion on pricing /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif!
Kirby Allen(50)
[ QUOTE ]
I called Shilen and they said that select match grade barrels do not come in #4 contour.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, they do. They do not advertise them on their website, but I spoke with Doug Shilen on the phone about it. It is a "special" order. I have 2. I was also told before I ordered them that the "select" match grade was not available in #4 countour but Doug Shilen gave it to me in writing that my 2 bbls are.
I called Shilen and they said that select match grade barrels do not come in #4 contour.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, they do. They do not advertise them on their website, but I spoke with Doug Shilen on the phone about it. It is a "special" order. I have 2. I was also told before I ordered them that the "select" match grade was not available in #4 countour but Doug Shilen gave it to me in writing that my 2 bbls are.
Kirby
You just made my point for me!
It is no longer cost effective to really true up 700s and think we are saving money. You said it will cost $650-700 based on your prices. Then add another $65 for Greg Tannels firing pin and another $30-40 for a trued recoil lug and you are at $750-800. When all done try to sell it and you will still only get $450-500 max. You lose 50% on taking delivery.
Jim Bordens Alpine and TBR actions (May 06 delivery) www.bordenrifles.com are now only $600, take all Rem triggers and bottom metal, set up for WSM and ultramags and come with trued recoil lug. They have been tested all over to include Alaska and Africa and are more accurate and less "binding" than 700s.
Lawton actions in 1.350 and 1.450 size are $695 the 1.60 is $795 has a 3/4" bolt diameter and has the strength to shoot anything you got the guts to pull the trigger on. The 1.350 is rem footprint and drops in and uses all rem bottom metal. Now if you want the 1.350 in single shot the tenon is about 3/4" longer, which corrects one of the Rem weak points. It has large lugs with a Sako type extractor mounted on the lug correction another Rem weakness. Any port and bolt configuration in moly or SS. I inspected the Lawton this weekend in Bruce Baers shop in PA and we ordered a couple.
Jerry Stillers Predator ($695)is rem footprint/bottom metal and trigger again in both SA and LA. SA is out now and LA in couple months.
All come with trued lugs and BR quality firing pin systems.
Clay Spencer (VA top BR smith for both SR and LR and top barrel maker) will have his version of the 700 action out later this year also and price should be in same ballpark.
Bottom line it is now a reality that you can buy a custom 700 size action or even bigger for less money than accurizing a 700. It will be better than an accurized 700 and cheaper while being much stronger. It will hold its value while the 700 drops 50% the day it leaves the gunsmiths shop.
BH
You just made my point for me!
It is no longer cost effective to really true up 700s and think we are saving money. You said it will cost $650-700 based on your prices. Then add another $65 for Greg Tannels firing pin and another $30-40 for a trued recoil lug and you are at $750-800. When all done try to sell it and you will still only get $450-500 max. You lose 50% on taking delivery.
Jim Bordens Alpine and TBR actions (May 06 delivery) www.bordenrifles.com are now only $600, take all Rem triggers and bottom metal, set up for WSM and ultramags and come with trued recoil lug. They have been tested all over to include Alaska and Africa and are more accurate and less "binding" than 700s.
Lawton actions in 1.350 and 1.450 size are $695 the 1.60 is $795 has a 3/4" bolt diameter and has the strength to shoot anything you got the guts to pull the trigger on. The 1.350 is rem footprint and drops in and uses all rem bottom metal. Now if you want the 1.350 in single shot the tenon is about 3/4" longer, which corrects one of the Rem weak points. It has large lugs with a Sako type extractor mounted on the lug correction another Rem weakness. Any port and bolt configuration in moly or SS. I inspected the Lawton this weekend in Bruce Baers shop in PA and we ordered a couple.
Jerry Stillers Predator ($695)is rem footprint/bottom metal and trigger again in both SA and LA. SA is out now and LA in couple months.
All come with trued lugs and BR quality firing pin systems.
Clay Spencer (VA top BR smith for both SR and LR and top barrel maker) will have his version of the 700 action out later this year also and price should be in same ballpark.
Bottom line it is now a reality that you can buy a custom 700 size action or even bigger for less money than accurizing a 700. It will be better than an accurized 700 and cheaper while being much stronger. It will hold its value while the 700 drops 50% the day it leaves the gunsmiths shop.
BH
BravoEMike
Well-Known Member
A custom Kirby Allen Sendero in .338 RUM, less stock.
Thanks for the qquick reply Kirby.
New Stainless Rem 700 Receiver....................................$460 **
Lilja Stainless Sendero contour 338 1-10 twist.............$310
Barrel fluting..........................................................................$120 optional
Holland Comp recoil Lug...................................................$40 installed
Holland QD muzzle brake..................................................$150 installed
Receiver accurizing.............................................................$175
Barrel fitting and chambering............................................$200
Matte finish barrel to match receiver................................$40
Rear bolt sleeve installation..............................................$80
Trigger tuning.......................................................................$40
Return shipping and insurance........................................$35
Total........................................................................................$1650 w/ fluted barrel
Total........................................................................................$1530 w/o flutes
Perhaps some levity to this all...
Went to the Pub last night...
sent 30 bucks worth of Heffe Weissen down the drain.
Thanks for the qquick reply Kirby.
New Stainless Rem 700 Receiver....................................$460 **
Lilja Stainless Sendero contour 338 1-10 twist.............$310
Barrel fluting..........................................................................$120 optional
Holland Comp recoil Lug...................................................$40 installed
Holland QD muzzle brake..................................................$150 installed
Receiver accurizing.............................................................$175
Barrel fitting and chambering............................................$200
Matte finish barrel to match receiver................................$40
Rear bolt sleeve installation..............................................$80
Trigger tuning.......................................................................$40
Return shipping and insurance........................................$35
Total........................................................................................$1650 w/ fluted barrel
Total........................................................................................$1530 w/o flutes
Perhaps some levity to this all...
Went to the Pub last night...
sent 30 bucks worth of Heffe Weissen down the drain.
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Bountyhunter,
Point taken. Just curious what the Receiver locking lug recess to receiver face measurements were in relationship to each other?
From looking at the Borden web page, the Timberline and Alpine receivers do not appear to be built to the same specs as their BR actions. The lowest price BR receiver is $1100 and you will need to supply the trigger and any bottom metal as well which is typical with a true BR receiver. Basically your looking at $1300 once you get the receiver, trigger and trigger guard ready to roll. BAsically the same as a Nesika receiver.
These BR receivers are their Rimrock receivers.
The Timberline and Alpine are described on the web site by this quote:
"They are being made to benchrest standards with lesser tolerances for bolt fit and have different features from our premium Rimrock Actions."
Does this mean they are not as true or square as the BR receivers? IT also seems that a trigger, mag box and bottom metal will also be needed to be added to these receivers. Is this true or do they come with these three things?
Did you take any measurements from the receiver face to the bolt face with the bolt stripped and in the closed position? Curious what the measurements at 12:00, 3:00, 6:00 and 9:00 on the bolt face were. What is the averge variance across the bolt face to the receiver face.
And finally, have you even been able to dial in any of these receivers in the lathe and check the axial alignment of the receiver threads in relation to the receiver axis?
Please do not take this as a challange to your comments because it certainly is not. If these receivers are square to less then 0.0002" across the bolt face and the receiver thread axis is true then I would agree totally, I would never order in another Rem 700 again!!!
When you get in your receivers I would be very interested in seeing these measurements taken from an actual customer and not taking the word of the receiver makers.
Again, not flaming them either in any way, hell I measure every BAT or Nesika that I build on as well. Just have to know they are square before I start a rifle build, sleep better that way /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif!!
Again, if these receivers are as true and square as an accurized Rem 700 then I would agree they are a steal for the money charged.
Still, if they need any of the accurizing steps mentioned previously, they will be pushing $1000 easily by the time they are true and ready to build on. Especially if you need to add a trigger, mag box and bottom metal to the receiver package.
I would also agree with you that there is no way you can buy a Rem 700, fully accurize it and then sell it as a bare receiver for what its worth and the machining value involved. That is why I do not sell bare accurized receivers.
Only receivers I sell are for rifle build projects and they are not ordered, or machined until an order is placed. This is another area we agree totally on.
On the Clay Spencer web page I did not see any information about their receivers but did find something that was interesting. On six of the seven centerfire rifle options they offer, a Trued Rem 700 receiver is used as the standard option. May be why they are coming up with their own receiver to match the Rem 700.
Thanks for the links, I will check into them and may even order in a receiver to check the measurements on. IF they are true and square they would be a great asset in custom rifle builds!!!
Good Shooting!!
Kirby Allen(50)
Point taken. Just curious what the Receiver locking lug recess to receiver face measurements were in relationship to each other?
From looking at the Borden web page, the Timberline and Alpine receivers do not appear to be built to the same specs as their BR actions. The lowest price BR receiver is $1100 and you will need to supply the trigger and any bottom metal as well which is typical with a true BR receiver. Basically your looking at $1300 once you get the receiver, trigger and trigger guard ready to roll. BAsically the same as a Nesika receiver.
These BR receivers are their Rimrock receivers.
The Timberline and Alpine are described on the web site by this quote:
"They are being made to benchrest standards with lesser tolerances for bolt fit and have different features from our premium Rimrock Actions."
Does this mean they are not as true or square as the BR receivers? IT also seems that a trigger, mag box and bottom metal will also be needed to be added to these receivers. Is this true or do they come with these three things?
Did you take any measurements from the receiver face to the bolt face with the bolt stripped and in the closed position? Curious what the measurements at 12:00, 3:00, 6:00 and 9:00 on the bolt face were. What is the averge variance across the bolt face to the receiver face.
And finally, have you even been able to dial in any of these receivers in the lathe and check the axial alignment of the receiver threads in relation to the receiver axis?
Please do not take this as a challange to your comments because it certainly is not. If these receivers are square to less then 0.0002" across the bolt face and the receiver thread axis is true then I would agree totally, I would never order in another Rem 700 again!!!
When you get in your receivers I would be very interested in seeing these measurements taken from an actual customer and not taking the word of the receiver makers.
Again, not flaming them either in any way, hell I measure every BAT or Nesika that I build on as well. Just have to know they are square before I start a rifle build, sleep better that way /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif!!
Again, if these receivers are as true and square as an accurized Rem 700 then I would agree they are a steal for the money charged.
Still, if they need any of the accurizing steps mentioned previously, they will be pushing $1000 easily by the time they are true and ready to build on. Especially if you need to add a trigger, mag box and bottom metal to the receiver package.
I would also agree with you that there is no way you can buy a Rem 700, fully accurize it and then sell it as a bare receiver for what its worth and the machining value involved. That is why I do not sell bare accurized receivers.
Only receivers I sell are for rifle build projects and they are not ordered, or machined until an order is placed. This is another area we agree totally on.
On the Clay Spencer web page I did not see any information about their receivers but did find something that was interesting. On six of the seven centerfire rifle options they offer, a Trued Rem 700 receiver is used as the standard option. May be why they are coming up with their own receiver to match the Rem 700.
Thanks for the links, I will check into them and may even order in a receiver to check the measurements on. IF they are true and square they would be a great asset in custom rifle builds!!!
Good Shooting!!
Kirby Allen(50)
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
BH,
Did some looking around more and found out some interesting things.
All of the receivers you mentioned except the Lawton(could not find a web page for them) will require you to buy a trigger assembly, magazine box and bottom metal before the receivers are ready for use. Now these things will run between $250 and $500 depending on what brand of componants the customer decides to use.
Even Bordens web page stated these receivers are not built to the same tolerances as their BR receivers.
Stiller lists $650 for a "bare" receiver so you will push $1K easily by the time its ready to build on.
FOr about 80% of all big game hunting the Rem 700 trigger can be tuned to work perfectly well. Plus if you order the receiver in the appropriate configuration, it already has the bottom metal and box magazine ready to go.
Sure you accurize it and add a striker assembly but your still under $700 in most cases ready to build on compared to more like $1000 for these receivers and thats if they do not need any accurizing. If they do they will be $1100-$1200 easily depending on what needs to be trued.
I will say that these can split the difference between an accurized Rem 700 and a receiver such as the BAT or Nesika Bay receivers. For that there may still be great value in using them but I do not see the value over a properly trued Rem 700.
Good debate and topic!!! The more receivers we have out there the better!!
Kirby Allen(50)
Did some looking around more and found out some interesting things.
All of the receivers you mentioned except the Lawton(could not find a web page for them) will require you to buy a trigger assembly, magazine box and bottom metal before the receivers are ready for use. Now these things will run between $250 and $500 depending on what brand of componants the customer decides to use.
Even Bordens web page stated these receivers are not built to the same tolerances as their BR receivers.
Stiller lists $650 for a "bare" receiver so you will push $1K easily by the time its ready to build on.
FOr about 80% of all big game hunting the Rem 700 trigger can be tuned to work perfectly well. Plus if you order the receiver in the appropriate configuration, it already has the bottom metal and box magazine ready to go.
Sure you accurize it and add a striker assembly but your still under $700 in most cases ready to build on compared to more like $1000 for these receivers and thats if they do not need any accurizing. If they do they will be $1100-$1200 easily depending on what needs to be trued.
I will say that these can split the difference between an accurized Rem 700 and a receiver such as the BAT or Nesika Bay receivers. For that there may still be great value in using them but I do not see the value over a properly trued Rem 700.
Good debate and topic!!! The more receivers we have out there the better!!
Kirby Allen(50)
Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
If you go up on the Pa. 1000yds club or on the Va. 1000yd club it is really amazing how many of the guns are built off of the Remington action and how few have the $1000+ actions.
It appears that there is a huge market for a middle ground cost action if it will meet specs. Time will tell which of the middle cost actions meet the requirements
What I do is try to keep some sort of track of which gunsmiths and barrels and actions are being used by people who demand accuracy at long ranges. The caliber used does not interest me much being as paper punching and animal punching are different requirements. Of course there are more Va gunsmiths used by the Virginia club members and more Pa. gunsmiths used by Pa club and then there is the Montana club etc.
It appears that there is a huge market for a middle ground cost action if it will meet specs. Time will tell which of the middle cost actions meet the requirements
What I do is try to keep some sort of track of which gunsmiths and barrels and actions are being used by people who demand accuracy at long ranges. The caliber used does not interest me much being as paper punching and animal punching are different requirements. Of course there are more Va gunsmiths used by the Virginia club members and more Pa. gunsmiths used by Pa club and then there is the Montana club etc.
