Tragic bear attack in Wyoming

[Buck Buster]

That is what I would want also, a tag along with the ones retrieving the kill with a large caliber rifle would have probably prevented anyone from being killed !

Just found out a couple hrs. ago the gun they had was an empty 9mm ! Not good !

 

[Pdvdh]

We have our share of bears in Alaska. The older I get, the more I prepare for them as I venture out on my hunts. For quite a few years now I've brought a shotgun to base hunting camp where I start out on backpack hunting trips. We will hunt ptarmigan around camp when the opportunity presents, for some added excitement.

The past 5 or so years I've also brought Brenneke slugs to base camp, for bear defense. Every now and then, we'll have to return to a kill site the following day to complete meat recovery. This is normally a caribou carcass. In those instances, I will carry my short barreled Rem 870 shotgun, loaded with Brenneke slugs.

Going forward, I'll be carrying what I consider the ultimate bear defense-of-life ammo. TSS buckshot.

This link leads to my post with further info on TSS buckshot. When returning to a kill site, the odds of bear encounters go way up. I want the odds for survival maximized in MY favor.

https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/bear-defense-shotgun.206409/page-4

 

[Pdvdh]

Just found out a couple hrs. ago the gun they had was an empty 9mm ! Not good !

For some reason, I was thinking it was a 10mm.

Yikes. I'd take the 9mm over bear spray, but I agree... not good... and far from ideal.

 

[Wedgy]

We have our share of bears in Alaska. The older I get, the more I prepare for them as I venture out on my hunts. For quite a few years now I've brought a shotgun to base hunting camp where I start out on backpack hunting trips. We will hunt ptarmigan around camp when the opportunity presents, for some added excitement.

The past 5 or so years I've also brought Brenneke slugs to base camp, for bear defense. Every now and then, we'll have to return to a kill site the following day to complete meat recovery. This is normally a caribou carcass. In those instances, I will carry my short barreled Rem 870 shotgun, loaded with Brenneke slugs.

Going forward, I'll be carrying what I consider the ultimate bear defense-of-life ammo. TSS buckshot.

This link leads to my post with further info on TSS buckshot. When returning to a kill site, the odds of bear encounters go way up. I want the odds for survival maximized in MY favor.

https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/bear-defense-shotgun.206409/page-4

I have been shooting the tungsten at geese and turkeys for a few years and it is unbelievable. My girlfriend body shot a turkey at 45 yards with #6 and there was nothing left of it. Only found 4 pellets that were stuck in bone and the rest were complete pass thru. The bird never even twitched. A coyote that came in to the hen decoy got the same thing and dropped like a sack. I didn't cut him open.

 

[Pdvdh]

I dropped a sandhill crane trying to escape after flaring away at 130-135yds with #5 TSS shot. Heart shot another at 95yds.

Tungsten shot's a whole 'nother game. The difference is dramatic.

And I expect the same dead-on-impact results with TSS buckshot on larger game animals. My bear load is designed for in-your-face head shots.

 

[Wedgy]

What velocity are you getting and what shell length ?
Sorry if I missed it earlier

 

[Hand Skills]

As I consider the story, if the guide had time to deploy bear spray before the fatal bite or blow, the he also had time to discharge a firearm, had one been accessible. He probably was proficient with that firearm. He was a big game guide, and it was his pistol. Wish he'd had it with him. No insensitivity here. Without discussion, we live, and don't learn very much.

Very much agree, sir. These discussions can become polarized, and my intent was just to open it up a bit. I'd hazard there's a good probability if the pistol was worn it would have also been loaded.

RE: The handgun's empty condition, that is most unfortunate. Interesting to know.

Many years ago, in Alberta (WMU 438) I stumbled upon a family of Grizzlies. 4 in total. It appeared to be a sow with triplets, all nearly as big as their mama. Here in Canada an average Grizzly is 250-300kg (600-700lbs). They are formidable creatures.

Fortunately for me, neither myself nor the bears had a kill on the ground to fight over. After what seemed like eternity, asserting I was neither predator nor prey, I backed out of the (their) berry patch. How does one prepare for that?! Is there such thing as enough gun for a 1v4?

My point is, you are fooling yourself if you feel safe in the woods simply because you have a gun.

It's interesting talking with indigenous Elders on the subject. Especially those living remotely. Culturally there is a depth of history here, and a real fear of bears.

Fear is healthy. Whether we are working with power tools, driving down the freeway, or in bear country. When I find myself becoming complacent, or start feeling comfortable in these situations, that's when I get worried. If a risk assessment doesn't make me feel alive, it's time to call it a day. That, or prepare to get hurt.

We are all responsible for our own choices, perhaps vigilance is the toughest choice of all.

 

[Pdvdh]

What velocity are you getting and what shell length ?
Sorry if I missed it earlier

As you probably know, shell length and volume of the shotshell hull with tungsten shot isn't usually limiting, because the shot is so dense and weighs so much. The total weight of the tungsten placed in the hull/wad is usually the limiting factor. Before you know it you'll have 2oz of TSS packed into a small column height.

For Sandhill cranes I load 1 7/8oz of TSS #5 and #6 shot, in both 3" and 3 1/4" hulls. Yes 3 1/4" hulls. I trim the 3 1/2" hulls down to 3 1/4" for better feeding and extraction from my Versamax semi-auto. MV is about 1,275fps.

For bear defense, I load 1 3/4oz TSS buckshot in 3" hulls, with a MV of 1,200 - 1,250fps.

I could likely load the same crane and bear defense loads in 2 3/4" hulls also, because the tungsten is that dense/compact, compared to lead shot. I have a 3" chamber on my 870, and a 3 1/2" chamber in the Versamax. So I don't need to load in the 2 3/4" length. But for those with 2 3/4" chambers, TSS is very doable for the shotshell reloader.

Tungsten doesn't deform in the shot column upon ignition, like lead shot deforms. In that respect, it's like steel shot. So you can ramp up the MV if you prefer without any deformation of the TSS shot during acceleration down the bore, and without degradation of pattern density. This means very dense TSS patterns are possible, and in fact, most common. TSS patterns twice as tight as lead shot are the norm.

So I fully understand when you stated the turkey was ripped to shreds with the #6 TSS shot @ 45yds. Need to scare them farther away before pulling the trigger! I won't even shoot my TSS shells at cranes until they're 70yds and farther. A direct hit on anything closer and all that's left is feathers. That's a tad exaggerated... but closer than 70yds would be massive damage to the body of the crane.

 

[WildRose]

I'm going to need a bigger holster

And a mule. I carried an M60 numerous times over the years and it was never a pleasant experience.

Even the cut down version issued to us and other SOF units weighed 21.8lbs empty.

 

[WildRose]

Very much agree, sir. These discussions can become polarized, and my intent was just to open it up a bit. I'd hazard there's a good probability if the pistol was worn it would have also been loaded.

RE: The handgun's empty condition, that is most unfortunate. Interesting to know.

Many years ago, in Alberta (WMU 438) I stumbled upon a family of Grizzlies. 4 in total. It appeared to be a sow with triplets, all nearly as big as their mama. Here in Canada an average Grizzly is 250-300kg (600-700lbs). They are formidable creatures.

Fortunately for me, neither myself nor the bears had a kill on the ground to fight over. After what seemed like eternity, asserting I was neither predator nor prey, I backed out of the (their) berry patch. How does one prepare for that?! Is there such thing as enough gun for a 1v4?

My point is, you are fooling yourself if you feel safe in the woods simply because you have a gun.

It's interesting talking with indigenous Elders on the subject. Especially those living remotely. Culturally there is a depth of history here, and a real fear of bears.

Fear is healthy. Whether we are working with power tools, driving down the freeway, or in bear country. When I find myself becoming complacent, or start feeling comfortable in these situations, that's when I get worried. If a risk assessment doesn't make me feel alive, it's time to call it a day. That, or prepare to get hurt.

We are all responsible for our own choices, perhaps vigilance is the toughest choice of all.

The gun doesn't make you safe, it simply gives you the means with which to defend yourself if you are forced to.

Shooting a big bear with a handgun is either a fool's errand or an act of last resorts.

 

[WildRose]

Thanks for the notice of the details reporting.
The only logical conclusion from the reporting by the corner and the F&G, is the bear spray was dispensed before the fatal injuries were inflicted. So the bear spray did not deter this bear's fatal attack.
Why can't F&G state the obvious? I think they can't get over their personal bias, and/or don't dare cross the company line. That F&G prefer people use non-lethal bear spray rather than lethal firearms for bear protection.

Yet when they go in to investigate, it's with guns blazing. So the bear spray's good enough for Joe public, but not for them when their life is on the line.
What lends credence is their inability and unwillingness to state the obvious. The poor guy was killed after he dispensed the bear spray to the head/face of the bear. After all, the corner stated the fatal injury caused immediate death. Which clearly had to occur AFTER the bear spray was dispensed.
Instead, their statement is "We can't say that the bear spray didn't work."
Let me help: The bear spray DIDN'T WORK. Can you hear me now?

Simple, they care more about the bears than they do people.

They worry that if more people carry guns instead of bear spray they'll have more unnecessary shootings as well.

 

[WildRose]

You said it, @HARPERC

Even if the bear spray and handgun were to trade places in this story, there is no guarantee of a different outcome. Plenty of examples people carrying bear spray AND a gun getting bested by Ursidae. It's easy to say things would have worked out differently if he was wearing the gun, but one can't be certain. It's not only insensitive, but unrealistic to believe 'wearing a gun' is the takeaway here. This is obvious to anyone who has seen how fast bears can happen.

Thanks for the link @wyosteve it's interesting to fill in the details.

It's somewhat comforting the speed and efficiency with which 'officials' deal with bears guilty of human attacks. It's nice to read that the guide didn't do anything 'overtly wrong'. According to the article, he was prepared with bearspray, he way able to deploy the bear spray, and to paraphrase 'maybe if he used the bear spray earlier it would have helped more'?

Clearly something went wrong here.

The problem I see with bear spray is, in most cases it cannot be used to prevent an attack. By my definition, if an angry bear is close enough to get the mist, they have already attacked!

Still, I agree with the statement 'this story does not prove bearspray ineffective'. Used against a predatory black bear, statistics suggest there is a pretty good chance the subject of the attack will live. In the case of a territorial grizzly (like this one), the result here is tragic but not unprecedented.

My car has airbags, but it doesn't make driving on the freeway risk free. Skill of the driver is a big factor, but even the best driver can get blindsided. I look at bear protection much the same way.

The difference is the species, black bears simply are not as aggressive or hard to deter when on the attack as Grizzlies/Brown bears.

You're just not likely to deter an angry or starving grizzly with bear spray and certainly not one that has already been wounded.

 

[WildRose]

Hard disagree with the facts.

Hard to read double negatives too...

Whatever some official can or cannot say 'on the record' is of little consequence.

To me the strangest part of this story is how an 8yr old sow was reported to weigh 250lbs?

If that weight is accuracy it speaks to the reason for the ferocity of the attack, she was sick, starving, or previously injured.

Desperation is a strong motivator for both man and beast.

 

[Hand Skills]

If that weight is accuracy it speaks to the reason for the ferocity of the attack, she was sick, starving, or previously injured.

Desperation is a strong motivator for both man and beast.

I think this is a keen insight. Bears get injured - more often than we may care to acknowledge. The chances of running into an injured bear is higher than many of us realize.

A case of starvation could explain the unusually low weight, and the aberrant behaviour. 250lbs is really light though... Initially I suspected it was a case of mistaken units (kg became lbs), but with the information we have it's not clear.