Tracking Point Demo Video - Impressive

[Joe King]

No it's the relying on a crutch to take chances without first learning what your doing.

Primal don't try to decide what I mean you'll get it wrong. And for somebody preaching we need to stick together on this is kinda funny since your so damned quck to jump on me for having my opinion that doesn't agree with yours. I also find pretty interesting that the vast majority of your threads started and post are a sales pitch, and that you would get so bent when someone has any type of problem with a product your wanting to sell. I can tell you you'll never make a sale with me.

I don't have a problem with this technology being developed, or being used,. Fact is I think it's pretty damned neat. The one and only problem I have with it is if people use it on game it WILL give a false sense of ability to some (not all, some) but those some are all it takes to take a wack at an animal at ranges they have no business doing so, I have the vary same problem with the guy that takes his gun 1 week before season starts cranks one off at a pie plate then goes out and holds over about so much and takes a pot shot at something. I realize that, that's on the extreme edge but I stand by my point that using things that do the work for you and you never putting forth the effort to know where your bullets going is bad news for the rest of us. But things like that are akin to hunting deer and elk from a helicopter, using live feed cameras, electronic sights on bows. And yes taking a shortcut, sidelining knowledge training and experience to achieve an end with far less effort is lazy. I am not in any way telling any one that there's one one way to anything at all, I am however stating my opinion, don't like oh well but it is not an opinion without good reason put forth exactly how I meant it.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/another-bow-lope-hunt-98861/
For example this thread for me highlights the problem with people taking a shot they should pass on, and where game is concerned peoples brains go south, I feel this is one technology that will aid in bad decisions by folks that should not take those shots in the first place.

 

[orkan]

Primal don't try to decide what I mean you'll get it wrong. And for somebody preaching we need to stick together on this is kinda funny since your so damned quck to jump on me for having my opinion that doesn't agree with yours.

My opinion doesn't stop someone else from doing something, yours would. There's a difference.

I also find pretty interesting that the vast majority of your threads started and post are a sales pitch, and that you would get so bent when someone has any type of problem with a product your wanting to sell. I can tell you you'll never make a sale with me.

I'm a new sponsor. I'm suppose to be trying to sell here aren't I? You seem to like to sensationalize things. I've got around a hundred posts, and only 10 or so of them are within the last couple weeks... and I've been a sponsor for a whopping couple days. Can you show me where I'm getting bent when someone has a problem with something I'm selling? You don't know me in the slightest, yet feel confident that you will never buy anything from us because I disagreed with you? That's quite alright... there are lots of other dealers selling the items I carry. The fact that you don't want to buy them from us doesn't stop them from being the best products for the job. I suppose you would rather I ride the middle of the road so I can be everyone's friend in order to make money? My honest approach and my easily identifiable stance no good for you? It's worth exactly what you paid for it. There are plenty of businesses that will ride the middle of the line to appease you and accept your money with you never knowing where they truly stand on anything. If that's what you like to support, be my guest. I disagreed with you, but I did it politely. You have not returned the favor and want to take shots at my business, of which you know absolutely nothing about. I wish you were the first, but that title is long been handed down.

I don't have a problem with this technology being developed, or being used,. Fact is I think it's pretty damned neat. The one and only problem I have with it is if people use it on game it WILL give a false sense of ability to some (not all, some) but those some are all it takes to take a wack at an animal at ranges they have no business doing so, I have the vary same problem with the guy that takes his gun 1 week before season starts cranks one off at a pie plate then goes out and holds over about so much and takes a pot shot at something. I realize that, that's on the extreme edge but I stand by my point that using things that do the work for you and you never putting forth the effort to know where your bullets going is bad news for the rest of us.

You mean where we THINK they are going? If we knew... we would hit everything we aimed at every single time wouldn't we? So all you are talking about is perceptions.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/another-bow-lope-hunt-98861/
For example this thread for me highlights the problem with people taking a shot they should pass on, and where game is concerned peoples brains go south, I feel this is one technology that will aid in bad decisions by folks that should not take those shots in the first place.

People are doing that now, and some will do it regardless of the technology in their hands.

It's clear you aren't in the mood for polite discourse, and since we disagree in your mind we're enemies. Very well.

I'll leave you to it, but in the mean time I'll be looking for real information on this product to make an informed decision. Oh and not to worry, I'm not selling this product, so you don't have to be concerned about getting lured into a sales pitch and forced into buying something.

 

[Joe King]

My opinion doesn't stop someone else from doing something, yours would. There's a difference.

I'm a new sponsor. I'm suppose to be trying to sell here aren't I? You seem to like to sensationalize things. I've got around a hundred posts, and only 10 or so of them are within the last couple weeks... and I've been a sponsor for a whopping couple days. Can you show me where I'm getting bent when someone has a problem with something I'm selling? You don't know me in the slightest, yet feel confident that you will never buy anything from us because I disagreed with you? That's quite alright... there are lots of other dealers selling the items I carry. The fact that you don't want to buy them from us doesn't stop them from being the best products for the job. I suppose you would rather I ride the middle of the road so I can be everyone's friend in order to make money? My honest approach and my easily identifiable stance no good for you? It's worth exactly what you paid for it. There are plenty of businesses that will ride the middle of the line to appease you and accept your money with you never knowing where they truly stand on anything. If that's what you like to support, be my guest. I disagreed with you, but I did it politely. You have not returned the favor and want to take shots at my business, of which you know absolutely nothing about. I wish you were the first, but that title is long been handed down.

You mean where we THINK they are going? If we knew... we would hit everything we aimed at every single time wouldn't we? So all you are talking about is perceptions.

People are doing that now, and some will do it regardless of the technology in their hands.

It's clear you aren't in the mood for polite discourse, and since we disagree in your mind we're enemies. Very well.

I'll leave you to it, but in the mean time I'll be looking for real information on this product to make an informed decision. Oh and not to worry, I'm not selling this product, so you don't have to be concerned about getting lured into a sales pitch and forced into buying something.

My bad I ....well took somebody else's post and mentally included it right into yours. Saw that when I went back and reread your post and later posts

 

[Joe King]

Interesting to say the least. The thread above sums it all up. Someone has chosen to do it differently than you and in your opinion, that makes them a lazy ***. I can assure you, anyone who can afford this system is not a lazy ***! Unless your are clubing animals with a stick you broke from a tree, you are using technology. If you shoot a gun period, thank the chinese for inventing gun powder and a scientist some where making it smokeless to get the ballistics you are achieving today. Your claim to use no technology to date is obserd. Computers have been used to program equipment used to make guns sense they have been in existense. They only technology you havent used, is the technology you havent used to date, in the shooting world. If you choose to keep on like you are, great for you in your persuit. If someone else choosed to do it differently, good for them. It is truly sad that you can sit behind your key board and judge people.

who exactly have I judged?

I simply stated my opinion about the potential use of a new technology the I see as deviating from fair chase, where we are supposed to and need to hold ourselfs to a higher standard. As I have stated I think it's a **** neat technology, I don't have a problem with people using it. I do not feel that it has any place where game are concerned, and in many states similar things are not allowed because it violates the spirit of fair chase.

 

[Mike 338]

Must be something wrong with me. I make judgements all the time on almost anything and everything you can think of. Occasionally I'm wrong.

I feel pretty much the same way Joe does but this stuff is coming weather I like it or not. There will always be an element that believes the most important skill a hunter can have is writing a check. The fact is that plunking you money down can yield some amazing results. That makes me a little bitter but hopefully I've caught it in time.

From what I've seen, this technology offers hits, not kills. We'll see how it shakes out.

 

[Kanga69]

who exactly have I judged?

I simply stated my opinion about the potential use of a new technology the I see as deviating from fair chase, where we are supposed to and need to hold ourselfs to a higher standard. As I have stated I think it's a **** neat technology, I don't have a problem with people using it. I do not feel that it has any place where game are concerned, and in many states similar things are not allowed because it violates the spirit of fair chase.

Lazy *** couch potatoes. LOL

Fair enough and no hard feelings. You are completly entitled to your opinion and I respect that. Fair chase is a big deal for me as well. That in my personal opinion is in respect to the hunt in general. Canned hunts, in my opinion, are a bad thing. People who choose to hunt like that, have that right and I would politly decline the offer to join in. I am 43 years old and hunted my entire life in some very interesting places. Having a gun with an aiming system on it that is better than any scope I can buy to outfit my gun in no way guarentees meet in the freezer. Finding the game, will always be the complicated part that people who dont understand the fundamentals of hunting will not master. Its all good. People allowed to have different opinions is what makes this country great.

 

[bigbuck]

Actually, you have relied on a LOT of technology. That is unless you are using an open-sighted muzzle loading musket. ... and even that was considered high-tech when it was introduced.

How do you make sight corrections? How do you compute a firing solution? How do you determine range to target. All of those actions, in ANY form, represent a technology that at one point did not exist anywhere. They were developed, and now are in use by every long distance shooter the world over.

Fear leads to irrationality. I welcome new shooting technology. I don't have to use this computer-guided wonder rifle if I don't want to, and neither do you. Nor do I have to respect anyone that does. I do respect the technology however.

They specifically stated that this product would be "commercially available" in 2013. That doesn't suggest a "military only" application or intent to me. As it should be. The theory that the military should have things that civilians cannot comes from the minds of tyrants.

If they are out legally hunting, then they received a license to do so, just as you and I would have to. There are those that claim no one should be allowed to shoot a deer outside of 200yds. There are those that claim no one should be able to use an AR15 when hunting. The many opponents of various shooting technology all have one thing in common:

They want their way to be the only allowed way.

The fact that you've spent time honing your skills as an expert hunter that can get to within whatever range of his prey he would like DOES NOT give you the right to arbitrarily interfere with someone else's style of hunting. Whether it suits you or not. If this kind of thinking were allowed to make its way into rules and regulations... none of us would be allowed to use anything but a pointy stick to go hunting.



We reach the core of the issue. You put in the time, and you are ****ed that others won't have to. Do you think that just because others won't have to, your effort is wasted? It's this type of thinking that requires people to go to college for a position that has no need for it, but simply because the guy doing the hiring went to college and he wants to make everyone else do it as well. Can you tell me how that has a basis in logic?

I know very well what you are talking about. Many shooters have feared this for a LONG time. The idea that someone can "buy" their way to a 1000yd first-round hit doesn't sit well with the guys that have taken years to perfect the skill. As with any technology, this system will invariably have drawbacks, even if it works flawlessly. There will always be a place for the guys that didn't take shortcuts and put in the time. To think that just because someone buys one of these rifle systems, it puts them on the same level as guys that have been doing it for years is false. It's a fear-driven knee-jerk reaction. Nothing more.

It can't be illustrated more accurately than the same fear induced reactions us long range hunters get. I can tell you with 100% certainty that the last deer I shot did not require me to "pit my skills against the animal." I was close to a thousand yards out, and he was standing around with no clue I was there. Next thing he knew he was on the ground with bullet holes in him. There are many that say this is NOT fair chase, and are dead set against it for morality or ethics reasons, just as you are obviously set against this.

Who is right? Are the people that claim I'm a ruthless killer with no hunting skill because I can kill a deer beyond a thousand yards right? Are you right, to struggle against this latest advancement in technology that will likely propel our sport forward? You know virtually NOTHING about this system. You saw a 2 minute video which was nothing more than a marketing pitch and yet you've already formed a position of opposition.

This seems very reactionary, as is often the case among shooters that try to control how another shooter chooses to pursue the sport.

I've got my own land to hunt on. If I end up not liking these systems, I can decide that no one uses them on my property. What I WILL NOT DO is try to tell other shooters how they should be shooting. If I don't like what they are doing, I don't have to hang out with them. I spent years upon years working on my skills as a marksman and a hunter. I'm not afraid that someone will be able to accomplish the same thing with almost no effort. My journey was required in order to accumulate the knowledge and experience I have. They are no threat to me. I know this because I'm secure in my own position. I don't have to restrict others to be competitive or to maintain my dignity. I don't have to make everyone go through the same pains and trials that I did in order to feel justified in my journey.

Instead, I try to help other people advance faster than I ever did... providing as much knowledge and as many shortcuts for them as I am capable of giving. If they can become as proficient as I without doing the extra work, good for them. I'll be happy to have helped them do it.

Rather than stay latched onto a past that will never come again, I will welcome new technologies and adapt them to my own style. If these rifles perform as advertised, I'll have to try one out. However, there are LOTS of questions that need answered before I would jump at the chance. Before reflexive fear kicks in... I encourage people to think it out before automatically forming an opinion without any of the facts.

For instance, have you given any thought to wind at all? I see nothing in this system that automatically accounts for wind. Even if it did, how does it see the shifting directions and intensity of wind downrange between the firing position and the target? This is just one of several questions that need answered before I will worry about what couch potatoes will use them for.

"fear-driven knee-jerk reaction "
Soo you slam someone that gives there opinion ? Where does two wrongs make a right ??? I can see were MR king would be a little offended at this kind of system. Some may say he has judged others but in return others have utilized judgment on his view as well . The ole "judge not" mentality.....The critics always shout judge not all the while they judge. (silly) Everyone has views what makes your right or mine for that matter ? Just my .02 Now go ahead and SLAM away my friend

 

[Mike 338]

Lazy *** couch potatoes. LOL

Fair enough and no hard feelings. You are completly entitled to your opinion and I respect that. Fair chase is a big deal for me as well. That in my personal opinion is in respect to the hunt in general. Canned hunts, in my opinion, are a bad thing. People who choose to hunt like that, have that right and I would politly decline the offer to join in. I am 43 years old and hunted my entire life in some very interesting places. Having a gun with an aiming system on it that is better than any scope I can buy to outfit my gun in no way guarentees meet in the freezer. Finding the game, will always be the complicated part that people who dont understand the fundamentals of hunting will not master. Its all good. People allowed to have different opinions is what makes this country great.

Canned hunts bug me but farming and ranching is almost dead. It's a way for mom and pop to keep the ranch. It also keeps those inclined to shoot into every moving bush from ever entering the woods. Listening to the tales of daring do is like hearing about a trip to the mall though. For the Guide that thinks this will reduce bad hits, there will always be Clients who don't listen to their Guide and take shots they shouldn't. Don't retire your dogs yet. Look on the bright side, if your tracking game, your not wiping butts.

 

[orkan]

"fear-driven knee-jerk reaction "
Soo you slam someone that gives there opinion ? Where does two wrongs make a right ??? I can see were MR king would be a little offended at this kind of system. Some may say he has judged others but in return others have utilized judgment on his view as well . The ole "judge not" mentality.....The critics always shout judge not all the while they judge. (silly) Everyone has views what makes your right or mine for that matter ? Just my .02 Now go ahead and SLAM away my friend

I specifically pointed out that I was judging, actually. People seem to have a really bad habit of combining my posts with others.

The difference is that if you are for something, it doesn't restrict someone else. If you are against it, it invariably will restrict someone else. Is this really that hard to see? A knee jerk reaction FOR something, or at the very least not against, which is later changed to against after reliable information is received is not a bad thing.

Believe me, if I wanted to "slam" someone... it wouldn't be open for interpretation. You'd KNOW what just happened.

 

[COBrad]

Orkan, I have a hard time with this much argument from someone who is trying to introduce themselves and sell their wares through the forum. Nothing wrong with selling on the forum, that's just good business, but for me, it sounds way too much like a hard-sell of your views.
I think the technology we are discussing is way cool in it's own way, but IMO it is in the same category as hunting from a remote location via computer.

 

[orkan]

As I said, if you are looking for a guy to quietly ride the middle of the road, acting like a friend to both sides while really only looking out for myself... that isn't me, and that is not how I run any of my companies. I may be more financially successful if I just kept my mouth shut and never got involved in any controversial conversations, but that is not a price I'm willing to pay. I owe it to our customers to be straight with them in all our dealings. Issues that divide the shooting community really get under my skin, because it puts us in a position to do the work our enemies are suppose to be doing. It's something I'm very passionate about. Perhaps to a fault. I'm not saying I'm for or against this tech as it pertains to hunting. It's not out yet, and no one knows what it's actually capable of.

Is my view really that hard to get behind Brad?

In a nutshell, boiled down, all I'm trying to say is that we should be careful when rallying against emerging technologies in the shooting world before they are even on the market. The more we divide ourselves, the easier we are for our enemies to conquer. That is all I'm trying to say.

I don't find that to be too argumentative. That's a positive message in my opinion. Am I wrong?

 

[Mike 338]

Issues that divide the shooting community really get under my skin, because it puts us in a position to do the work our enemies are suppose to be doing.

I prefer to think of it less as dividing and more as working it out in our own minds. The cream of technology will rise to the top despite the chatter. Our enemies are just as diligent, with or without our help and suggesting a little back and forth certainly doesn't put any of us in their camp. Your opinion is valid but no more so that Joe's or Brad's. It could be a little more valid than mine though . Mostly it's all just white noise because the good o'le consumer will have the final word.

Now go launch a tracking missile you lazy azzzes!

 

[COBrad]

As I said, just my opinion. Doesn't float my boat, but that won't matter to anyone but me. And I still don't believe this discussion is worth the cyberspace it has taken up. Too much drama.

 

[orkan]

Your opinion is valid but no more so that Joe's or Brad's.

I agree completely.